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Shimano Joins Us for a Deep Dive on Di2 Wireless Development, Redesigning Brakes & more... Ep. 158 [Podcast]
Today on the podcast, Jared and Liam are joined by our friends Nick and Mike from Shimano Mountain Bike Division. They dive deep into the development process for their wireless Di2 mountain bike drivetrain, how they were able to make improvements on their brakes and much more. Tune in!
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Submit any and all questions to podcast@worldwidecyclery.com.
If you are one strange human that would like to read a transcript of the podcast above, continue reading below!
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to episode 158 of the MTB podcast presented and
hosted by Worldwide Cyclingery, Kettle Mountain Apparel, and Trail Onein Components. I'm Jared. I'm Liam.
I'm Mike. I'm Nick. Nice. Nailed it, guys. And in this episode, we are lucky enough
to have our friends from Shimano Mountain Bike Division joining us to talk all things mountain bike, as well
as their recent release of wireless Di2 drivetrains and refreshed brakes, plus
some classic listener questions, ranging from replacing our arms with utensils to
drivetrain replacement parts and everything in between. Pretty legit, huh?
Thanks for joining us, guys. Thank you for having us. Absolutely. Anytime. Zach's words of wisdom. Just
keep going. Pretty simple this time around. Yep. Zach's simple guy. Yeah. Kind of like Finding Nemo. Just
keep swimming, right? The You probably got it from that. You probably watched it last week.
Zach had kids. No, Zach does not have kids. Zach is a kid.
He's not. He's like 32 years old. Just But yeah, uh yes, kid and man body
sometimes, but very responsible. He's grown up a lot lately. Yeah. Yeah. You know, sometimes you just need
that special person in your life to really straighten you out, you know. Speaking of which, Daniel's fun fact,
bananas are considered berries, but strawberries are not.
It's pretty mind-blowing when you think about it. Yeah. Is that like uh what tomatoes are fruits?
I think similar similar concept. Yeah. So, the science behind this is that real
berries come from a single flower with one ovary and have seeds inside. Yes,
that's bananas, but strawberries, they're what we call aggregate accessory fruit because they have their seeds on
the outside. H, pretty interesting. I mean, I'm not a
scientist, but it makes sense to me. Well, that sounds like a scientist answer. That was that was Chat GPT's answer.
Ah, okay. Yeah, who is a scientist? Chat GPT is all things, especially science.
Yeah, that's I think I need to meet Zach and Daniel. Yeah, I think that's what that's told me. For sure. Yeah, that could make that happen.
Yeah, provide some insight, you know, into these guys. Uh, how about a fantastic testimonial? I
was recently driving home from shredding at Rock Creek. Shout out to Nico and the crew. After a full day of burm slapping,
tire shalping, and hanging tent with the boys, there I was, deep into last month's podcast as I cruised down the
road back home to Charlotte. So deep that I completely forgot that my tank had been on E for 55 plus miles. I ran
out of gas on the interstate ride as you guys were deep in the sauce over Bre epic tire choices. Definitely the first
time I've ever run out of gas and been stranded on the side of the road. It was sick. So shout out to the best bike podcast
around and for all the hypnotizing content that makes us listeners feel like we're a part of your crew. Keep
doing what you do. Thanks Drew. It's a high praise.
You guys ever done that? Have you ever ran out of gas? No, I have. I think my car would let me now.
Electronic car. No. No. Just It doesn't take gas.
The thing it starts yelling at you with 50 miles to go and then it gets worse at 25 miles to go. I don't think I've ever
made it past that. I'm sure you could, but I would hate to think what it would do with zero miles to go because you
know it's lying too, right? That like it's like we're on fumes and like there was five gallons in there.
Bluffing. Yeah. You ever tried to call the bluff? No. No. He never ran out of gas either.
I think I want to know how Drew got back and then I think I want to know if he finished the podcast.
Right. I would hope you finish the podcast waiting for TripleA. Yeah. Going to say probably Triple A
came in to save the day and uh hopefully he finished the podcast while waiting like you said. Yeah. Have you ran out of gas, Mike?
I have not. No, I never have either. I mean, my my wife runs out of gas just about all the
time, it feels like, but I'm always filling up her tank, which is good. Yeah, good man.
She likes to call the bluff for sure. Yeah, I don't live. She's so into her podcast, she forgets.
Could be. Nice. I haven't. My Sprinter van now has it's
like a what a 2012 and the gauge is um
trying to explain for people listening. It's like a I don't know what would you call that?
Like a the needle. And it's it's not a needle though. So the bars
has bars, right? But the bars aren't equal. So the first bar like when you fill up the tank takes
like 100 miles to go down. The last three bars take 30 miles.
So it's like it's like drinking out of martini glass, right? Like your first sip you never touch the top. Like it's
like, "Oh yeah, I've got so much martini left." And then the last sip it's like, you know, down to nothing. Yeah, that's how my gas gauge is. So, I never
call the bluff cuz I don't know where it's at. That's a great metaphor, Liam. Yeah, that was Did you come up with that like
off the cuff? The martini glass. Yeah, cuz I'm I'm every time I'm road tripping, I'm so upset at this gas like everything's
great about the the Sprinter vans of this era, but that I'm like, who approved this gas gauge?
That's crazy. It's like such a German thing to slip through the cracks of just like this doesn't make sense for anybody.
Interesting. Agreed. Yeah, but you got to know by now how many how many miles you can get to the tank.
Yeah. Yeah. If I pay attention to that. Yeah. I pretty much just try to refill when
it's on the three or the two. Yeah. And like never take it to the one if I can. That's a safe bet. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. That's a good call. Is better to fill your tank at quarter tank cuz the fuel pump works less hard.
Oh. Than if you like run it all the way down the bottom of the tank is getting starting to come into the fuel lines for
your tank to be full. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. So, best practice maybe have a tank.
Yeah. you know, that would be good. Yeah, that's that's a lot of um responsibility.
That very That's a lot of responsibility for sure. So, now you got mountain bike and car tips.
Yeah. And that's what this podcast is all about. Just spanning the gap of knowledge, you know.
Keep We don't even need to talk about bikes. If you want to guys get a coffee, whiskey or something.
Sure. Yeah. No problem. Drinks. Hey, I love a good tiki bar, let me tell
you. I mean, I assume you're a connoisseur as well. Oh, of course. What's the best tiki bar down in Orange
County? Uh, we have the Royal Hawaiian, uh, which is an old school place that's been
around for a really, really long time. So, where's that at? Uh, it's downtown Lagouna Beach.
Nice. Um, used to be part of the Royal Hawaiian Hotel, too. The hotel is gone, but the restaurant is still there.
It's coming gone a couple of times. Um, and uh, just before the pandemic, they kind of stopped being a tiki bar, so
that was a super bummer, but they're back to being a tiki bar now. Like they closed for a bit and reopened and
nice. Yeah. Sweet. So that's that's the go-to. That's your recommendation if I were to go down there?
For sure. In Orange County. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, uh, Strong Water. I can't believe them, man. Tiki Files would be flipping
out if I said Royal Hawaiian was the go-to. Strong water. That is the one that's like the destination. Like people
travel from the country to go there. It's in Anaheim. Oh, no way. Yeah. Nice. Okay, good to know. I'm going to
have to refer to that the podcast next time I go down there. Yeah. Um, have you been to Ventiki up in Ventura?
Of course. Yeah. Just confirming, you know, I know you're Ventur.
That's a That's a pretty spot. Venti is pretty OG. Was a good spot. There used to be a garage Ventiki bar in
Strand that we' go to quite often. obviously is not open like to the public, but serve very strong drinks
there for a very good price. You love to hear it. You love a good tiki bar. There's also a
really cool one on Catalina Island. I don't know if you guys ever been there. It's on my list like within the next year. We just need to like pick a
weekend and go. Yeah. Worth it for sure. Might or might not have been a secret
industry tiki bar at Lost and Found Gravel Race. Oh, that's all I can say about that.
That's neat. That's pretty cool. It was cool. It was a nice surprise. It was way more I heard about it and then it was
way more legit than I thought it was going to be. Wow. Speaking of riding bikes, Liam, uh why
don't you start us off? Tell us about some bikes and rides you've been enjoying lately. I've just been uh grinding away uphill
for what feels like weeks now. Yeah. Well, you have. That's why it feels like actually. Yeah. Um, a lot of uphill
riding, a lot of downcountryesque rides where uh me and Tyman have just been
doing stupid 4hour rides with 5 to 7,000 ft of climbing and starting at like 9:00. So, we purposely are in 85°
weather. Heat training training. Ouch. Solid every time. We did one the other week in Ohigh and we kind of were doing like we
went up Cesar which was like an hour I think it was like an hour 10-minute climb. um at like pretty much full
threshold effort. Uh and we're adding on an extra loop which climbed like an
extra thousand feet to send a six single track and we had to climb halfway back up that fire road again. And both of us
were sitting in the shades saying, "Why do we do this?" We could not do that extra loop and just go straight to the
next downhill and cut out about two an hour, probably an hour plus of riding in this heat. and we both couldn't get
ourselves to cut and we both made ourselves do the whole ride. So, it was good, but it sucked for sure. At least you guys found some shade out
there. Barely. Yeah, we're like both cooked up against the uh hillside with like the
one bush that was thick enough to provide shade in this SoCal.
Yeah, I was going to say the SoCal struggle. Yeah, so struggle desert landscape of uh Yeah. High noon there's no shade out
there and no trees. No trees. Yeah. And so yeah, I've been doing that a lot. Tire testing and yeah, leave to
Downeyville in less than a week. So nice. Have you have you uh come to a conclusion as to your tire setup?
As of now, I'm going to start practice in Downeyville on a Victoria Barzo front, Victoria Mezcow rear 24, and
their like new XC race setup. Nice. So sick. Um the test is going to be in Downeyville because you never flat down
here and then I flat up there. So, uh, if they don't flat, that's what I'm going to be running
with the Turbo Light insert or light inserts. Yeah. Front and rear. Nice. So, I've also been riding my Banshee
with some Shimano XT DI2 on there. Nice. So, got in a couple rides on that as well.
Very sick. Yeah. So, we'll talk about that in a little bit. Nice. Sweet. What about you guys? Riding some bikes lately?
Yes, of course. Always. Uh, we both just got back from Northwest Tunip in
Bellingham, so we did a little bit of riding up there. Rad. Sweet. Yeah, that's so cool. How's that? Uh, it was super fun. Yeah.
Um, I don't know. What' you think? What's the verdict? Uh, I mean, it's always a good time.
Totally. You had been in Bellingham before. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We were Well, some classic trails
and some stuff we had never ridden before. That was really nice. Yeah. Cool. Sick. Yeah. It's uh trippy. What's that?
Oh, that event looks like a good time. It looks fun. Like everyone's kind of out there. There's
like concert, right? Like bands play in the evening and whatnot. Yeah. And this sweet transition between the bike crowd and the concert crowd in
the evening. So, like between 5:00 and 6:00, we'll keep the booth open even after like the bike festival ends just
cuz the wave of people is starting to come in. And we uh we like got a booth closer to the contr concert entrance this year and
could get a lot more exposure to that of like people curious about one like
they all know, right? Like they live there. They know it's an town. Like everybody's at least thinking about it or if they've got the opportunity like
let me go explore a little bit. Mhm. Good conversations. Nice. It's a stark contrast from your summer riding though
of there's lots of trees. Yeah. There's lots of shade. Yep. Right. And the trails are not blown out. So,
I mean, in their eyes, maybe. They say it's blown out. I'm like, are you kidding? Zero dirt. Yeah.
Oh, I'm so jealous. Yeah, it was fun. It was a good event. Nice. That's so rad. You guys bring bikes up
there or uh I did. Yeah. What were you guys riding? I was on a Yeti SP40.
Nice. Then I was on my Stumpy 15. Nice. Yeah. Very cool.
Good kind of do it all bikes for up there. Probably a little undergunded on a couple trails. I'm sure
if the locals took you down some some nar but for sure. But it's a good both good
bikes to travel with. You know, you don't know what you're getting into. Over fork, too. So, it's a little bit
It's ready for it. Yeah. Nice. Is there a personal 140? Yeah. Nice. Great minds think alike. I've got
one myself. Nice. Excellent. Yeah. Oh, was Shimano as well? I did.
I didn't choose that part. It chose you. Yeah.
Awesome. Well, yeah, I've been kind of riding a little bit uh my 140 as well, just kind of locally. And then I rode
the Amplow last night down in Sycamore. That was pretty cool. Fully rebuilt, ready for some more thrashing, as you
would say. Just did a what, 25 mile ride in 2 hours? 17 miles in 1 hour.
Oh, okay. Yeah. Uh just a quick rip before you dinner, you know. Um seems like they did a little bit of
trail work on Backbone. Actually, I don't know if I told you that, but um they kind of trimmed up and widened down the bottom, which is super nice. It's
not like pushing you off the trail really anymore. Yeah, I was doing that. Yeah. And then they kind of trimmed that
like super overgrown section in the middle. So, that was pretty cool. Haven't really been back there in a while. Couple months or something like that. It's been too long. Um but yeah, that's
uh that's kind of all all that. We've got a bunch of excellent questions from
listeners uh for Shimano as well. But I mean, do we just jump straight into this
uh amazing question right here? Yeah. Yeah. Let's hit this question. We'll hit a couple drive drivetrain
questions. Awesome. Yeah. Okay. This is this is probably arguably the the toughest question we have here,
but if you had to replace your hands with kitchen utensils, which ones would you pick and why?
Nick, you want to go first? The Well, I feel like there's some obvious answers. My tendency is always
to start asking questions about the question and uh so yeah, like if I chose
chopsticks, could it be like an Edward Scissor Hands kind of thing where I could have 10 on one hand and basically
be a way to go? Yeah. Like five pairs of chopsticks that could each pick something up. I feel like
though you'd need to have one of the hands would need to be a knife. Uh I had a similar thought because if
you're doing any sort of prep work, although if you had the right utensil for hands, you could still hold
a knife. Oh, so we're not think we're not excluding any other utensil use. Right.
Right. This how you know his position of Shimona is much higher than mine
cuz I'm like I'm like fork and knife. What else do you need?
Wow. I went straight to spatula because I cook on a Blackstone all the time. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Mine was a very simple I went I
went where your brain went, Liam. I went straight to Well, I just need a spatula to cook on a Blackstone, right? Like tacos, fried rice.
Y do it all. What about the other one, though? I I didn't get that far. I didn't know I had two options. I got two hands, but I didn't know
both hands. Oh, man. Yeah. See, I was thinking like a uh you
know the camp like spork fork knife combo.
I was thinking that on one so you have a little serrated edge, the bowl and the prongs.
Yeah. And then I was going like uh more more tongs on the other side so I
can pick up stuff. Yeah, tongs. Those could be utilized quite well.
See, I want to change my answer actually. Not to tongs. Yeah. Just a I had this
image pop into my head of inspector gadgets. So like one of those immersion blenders that's got the interchangeable
like and then you can start making your own attachments and even uh dang like
make like a electric clamp or something like you got you got a motor
that you could Right. I'm assuming that electric power is okay. You say
yeah no rules obvious. Yeah. Electric power can obviously be attained. Yeah, we can we could wire that into
something. Yeah. Wow, that's a good answer. I'm going to have to probably go I mean, my my initial instinct was
spatula knife, but what if you had a sharp spatula that could kind of double
as a knife? Um, or maybe sharp on one side, you know? Yeah, maybe spatula with the sharp
side and then tongs for the other. You could probably accomplish a wide range of tasks, I feel like, with that. You
could be a habachi specialist. You could be a habachi specialist throwing throwing fried rice around.
Yeah. Just just sharp just two sharp sharp spatulas. You're chopping your throat and you're Yeah.
Yeah. That's pretty crazy. Yeah. Yeah. We actually went to Habachi like maybe a few weeks ago. Um it's always a
good time. This guy did the craziest onion volcano. You know when they do the crazy whatever. I mean it was a fire
hazard for sure. It's always a good time though. Um,
well, sweet. How about we jump into a drivetrain question? Yeah. Uh, let's see. Go ahead, Blame. All
right. Drivetrain questions for Shimano. When Shimano started to design the wireless DR2 drivetrains for Mountain
Bike, what were the expectations for the new product? Were there problems that wanted to be fixed or was it simply to
offer a wireless drivetrain to compete with the other big players in the drivetrain space? While the previous
wired toll speed was six years old, it still held up to today's performance and range. Were there concerns about having
something that would not not hold up to six years of future performance? That's
kind of a couple questions. It is. Yeah. But uh I think I can maybe answer the way that the product
development went because uh like in the beginning I mean we basically start with like a list of requirements that we want
uh like directions that we think the market is going or response to like how the previous product is performing in the market right now. And I think that
uh um especially when it when you see products come out on the market that are
fairly similar to each other. Um, I can tell you for sure that like the development cycle is so long that we
didn't like we couldn't have responded to transmission that quickly. Like there wasn't enough time.
It was pretty clear that derailers needed to get stronger. Like all derailers were taking small hits and
then the shifting was suffering. So I think we both just looked at the same thing and thought that's the thing that's got to get better about the next
generation is we need to make a stronger version. And then we went about solving it in totally different directions. Um,
and uh, so making an electronic version of that was obvious. I'd say that that
one was more of a response that once um, wireless electronic shifting came on the
market. It was really surprising to us how successful it was because we had kind of just seen a not very successful
implementation of Di2 on the mountain bike side. And so when we I guess I
joined the product development team um right before the last XTRM9100 group
launched seven seven and a half years ago. So like I came in for like the last 9 months of it or something like that.
And uh we still had been like we still had test camps and we were playing around with some electronic shifting
back then, but uh um it wasn't like electronic shifting was our main spec.
And so we're just kind of like it doesn't really feel like it's resonating with the market like it had been on the
roadside. And it had a slow start on the roadside too. So we thought maybe we just need to be patient with it. But we
decided to uh to not hold back the mechanical, the rest of the M9100, the
last one, um for the sake of Di2. And so uh the plan back at that time was keep
working on the Di2 stuff and uh and if it comes out a year later, then great. Like it's just a shifter and derailer
that we need to make updates to. And so that was our plan was that if we can do it in the first year and maybe push it
to 2 years later, like we'll still accept it. But around that time, wireless electronic shifting became a
thing. And uh when it first came out, uh admittedly, there was a lot of skepticism in our camp about, well, it's
just wireless. Like, what's the benefit of that? Like, it's uh um you've got a
smaller battery, like you've got to worry about battery security, and you've got range anxiety now. And uh um but
just the fact that it was it looked better on the bike. It was easier to work on at home. like it was so easy to
install. Like uh we really underestimated the benefit of the advantages that just inherently come
with wireless and just kind of thought of them as like an aesthetic thing. And like if you've got clean internal
routing, like certainly everybody who's running a tri bike has got Di2 on it and
like all the wires are just inside and so shouldn't you be able to do that with a mountain bike as well? And um it's
definitely harder on a mountain bike not being able to stick the battery inside the seat tube. Uh but uh I don't know. I
think those are kind of separate like small little side issues. It really was that like that was the thing that
resonated was having components that were that easy to install and like made the front end of the bike look really
nice. Um and without needing special equipment like really the end of the day, mountain
biking has got kind of its own identity and things that fly with road bikes or triathlon or gravel like just it's not
going to resonate with mountain bikers the same way. So saying you could put the wires inside the handlebar like it
doesn't really work that way. It's like well I don't I don't want them to though. Like I just want it to look like kind of sweet and simple
and like it belongs in the dirt, right? Um and uh so today's performance and range
I think um like the old XTR has held up and all the 12-speed stuff has held up
so well, right? Like it's not outdated essentially. Um, as far as range goes,
performance goes, weight, all that stuff. It's spot on with anything, it just has a cable that actuates it,
right? So, well, which is why we haven't discontinued any of that stuff at the moment. Uh, I mean, we'll see where the
market goes, and it's probably going to be very different for XT and XTR, like if you're buying an XTR bike. Basically,
the demand is for electronics at that point, but XT and mechanical especially, like uh that shifter and derailer are
still around. Um, and uh, maybe like uh, if you want a light, simple, dependable
setup, then that's still the way to go. So, uh, yeah. Yeah, I think we recognize that there's
still a handful of the market that wants a mechanical, simple drivetrain, right? Like, yeah, I'm one of them. I love mechanical
stuff. It's just no worries. Hop on, go. Yeah. The interesting thing to recognize
like a or maybe the way to think about it is that anybody for the last couple of years if they had been buying a
relatively high-end bike um like we've got a lot of sales numbers saying that
electronic shifting is the way to go. But if you look at like when it comes down to the actual rers's choice about
what they wanted like they wanted a complete bike that was going to come with wireless electronic shifting. So,
uh, a lot of people have ended up with wireless electronic shifting that either didn't care or actually didn't want it
and had to accept it. So, uh, yeah, this is, uh, uh, a time where people are
finally going to have good choices on both sides. Yeah, for sure. Sure. You guys were a little bit clued
in to when uh Specialized dropped the Stump P15 and it did not have mechanical
routing on the carbon frame. Did you guys have on that? If that was okay like year and a half or
so before they did it that um like double-checking our launch time. No, maybe it was 2 years cuz they would have
known the launch timing otherwise. But yeah, we like had a sit down at Sea Otter together and they said what they were planning on doing and we're like,
"Oh yeah, it won't be that much longer until our wireless stuff comes out and so um yeah, I think it should be all
right." Yeah. Nice. There was I think I I said I had some 15 and there was like a six-month window
where I didn't have our DI2 stuff, so I was like wiring a cable on it like all bummed out and now it's D2 and it's all
clean and good. But there was a there was a small window where there was mechanical cable zip tied to it. I was going to say, did you
just zip tie around zip tied around the outside of the frame? Yeah, totally. Dang, that is crazy.
I have uh an added question here that I just thought of after you were answering that one.
Do you think that because this is my opinion from having worked on all bikes
from 1x10 all the way till now. Um do you think if we stayed at 11 speed and
the derailers were a little bit more robust and a little less finicky, electronics would be as big of a part as
they are today. Like if I think of 11 speed, you could bash that derailer and have way easier
adjustment than 12 speed now, which B gap's a huge important deal. Micro
adjustments, you know, quarter turns are a huge deal. Derailers seem more sensitive to impacts and slight
alignment issues compared to like 11-speed stuff. I wonder do you think that's
it's kind of a hypothetical but well and that's kind of what the link glide drivetrains were trying to address
a bit as well like talk about nice mechanical shifting options um that are
adding in durability and um the they use like a fundamentally different cable
pull where it pulls the same amount in every gear so you end up with a wider range of adjustment um a bit but uh it's
a little hard to uh make an apples Apple's comparison because with 12speed we got hyperglide plus from us like
basically shift technology really evolved um in u uh the last seven years
from both sides and so if uh I think if you hopped on an 11-speed Shimano bike
now you'd be frustrated with the shift quality like that clunk clunk clunk as you're accelerating and uh um a little
bit slower shifting when you're shifting into an easier gear And uh
uh so really if we're just talking about range of adjustment and robustness then
um it's a nice thing to have. I think that we uh uh like you most riders need
about a 500% gear spread on their bike. Um and if you like a lot of people
really could get away with less than that. It's pretty interesting with uh uh the Di2 setup. You can see how much time
you spend in each gear. And I've been shocked like on my 945 setup that like really I don't use the nine like at all
like could have an 11 an 11-speed 1146 cassette and as long as I got the right
size chain ring like totally works like don't bum me out. Um but uh uh assuming that you do need a
500% gear spread that gets to be pretty big for 11 cogs to jump across.
True. Yeah, true. But you're right, if you have the right chain ring size, like I was like same thing. I was running the 9
to46 uh you know, new Di2 and it doesn't really leave much to be desired like in
90% of terrain unless you're on something like insanely steep, right? And what chain ring did we uh what chain ring did you put on it?
I think it was a 30. 30. Yeah, I'm pretty sure. Yeah, I made you go 30 cuz it was like no way on 28
stronger than that. Yeah, but I loved it, you know. It was refreshing honestly. Um, yeah, just have
kind of a more consistent, I guess, change across the the cogs, you know. Yeah, we we had made that 11 speed
cassette for the N9100 group that was uh just the first 11 cogs of a 1051
cassette. Um, and uh so you didn't really need a special derailer. Like you'd use the short cage one cuz it was
a 1045, but you just wouldn't use the last click in the shifter. And even the first shifters had like a little lockout
to disable the 12th click. um that cassette got pulled uh but we had
already produced like some of them a couple thousand so it turned into this pro only cassette so all the pros would
use the 11-speed cassette and then we never sold any of them so that was what I was building my bikes with like
exclusively wow pro setup and I mean anybody could make one you just cut the 12 cog off your cassette
that I did mono does not endorse that I I did that on an eagle cassette I cut
the the 50 off and it was all gold. And uh yeah, went went a little viral like
chopping up at at the time like a $500 cassette. Yeah. To make it 11 speed
cuz on the 12speed the Shimano cassettes, it's like the first is it three or four are pinned together or
and then they're riveted to a carrier. Yeah. Right. So you would have to cut it off, right? But then you have to cut the
carrier but then the smaller cogs are individual like after that point. Right. I guess the bottom four or five.
Nice. I guess what's like kind of the reasoning behind that as well behind like having some pinned and then some
not. Well, the top are alloy and the bottom are steel, right? Yeah. So, that's part of it is that we can change materials across the
cassette. So, for XTR, there's three aluminum ones and then five titanium ones and then the rest of them are
steel. So, you get a really good mix of durability and weight. Um but uh it also
means that we can uh use a different process to form those uh those cogs. So
uh when they're put under pressure like a compression like forging or stamping or something like that, you're aligning
the the grain and so when you uh and compacting it a bit as well. So when you start cutting the teeth, you're not
slicing off the ends of a bunch of like open grain basically. So you end up with
a stronger product if you can form those cogs individually. So you end up with less broken teeth or reducing weight for
the same strength, right? Nice. That's I've always kind of wondered that as well, just like looking at them um and
putting them together, right? Cuz instead of just like having a one piece cassette or kind of like the sur ones, right? Um yeah, that's super
interesting. I never I never realized that. Um well, sweet. How about this
next one? Then we can hop into a little break. Shimano has always been known for crisp, consistent shifting. With the
move to wireless, what performance benefits are riders likely to notice on the trail compared to either previous DI2 or mechanical groups?
There's a couple of things there. So, um, with electronic shifting, you're
getting basically a disconnect from the action of pulling the cable. So, particularly like when you're shifting
to an easier gear, like you can kind of feel the resistance change through the cable as the derailer's like getting
pushed back from the the chain. Um, that disconnect though maybe can be a good
thing sometimes that uh uh because it goes effortlessly and I've uh found like
if I'm going to race a bike, it's going to be a cross country race or usually like a marathon race. But I find myself
shifting a lot more often now um because it's a Hyperglide Plus system that
shifts super fast and because it's so effortless to hit that that shifter. Um and I've got like an old thumb injury,
so it gets really really hard to pull cable as I get deeper into a long race. But uh um the what's different I mean we
kind of can call out Hyperglide Plus is a separate thing that uh uh the way that
the chain interfaces with the teeth is uh uh a new unique system where like the
inner plate on the chain is extended out past the roller so that inner plate is touching every tooth and you can predict
the way that the chain's going to move from cog to cog a lot better. Um and uh
so it allows for shifting under load but also doing it super fast. And basically the key is this is more when you're
shifting to a smaller cog and accelerating is that uh old systems for forever the way that they had worked and
kind of the like yeah the foundation of hyperglide even been around since the 80s but even before that the way that a
chain shifts um is that it disengages with a cog and then it's kind of airborne for a split second and then it
lands on the next cog. So that's why older drivetrains you'd get that clunk clunk clunk, especially if you're like
adjusting it in the repair stand and you'd be looking for that like nice satisfying clunk. And uh um the key to
fast shifting under a lot of load is to just start driving the next cog before you've let go of the previous cog. And
so the chain really wants to jump down to the next smaller cog. So it's basically having the chain grab onto uh
at some point is going to be just a single tooth, right? where like you need that tooth to rotate out of the way instead of letting the chain jump off to
the to the inside. So, um you can end up with faster shifting because the
derailer movements are more precise and consistent and effortless and you're more willing to do them with an
electronic system. But the other part of like the shifting performance difference that we get compared to uh like our
current mechanical systems is that the um the stabilizer mechanism in the
derailer is different. So the spring tension is considerably higher than it was before. And the difference there as
it relates to shifting is that uh the upper pulley basically is bouncing around less. So, as you're riding,
doesn't have to be like super rough terrain, like even on a gravel road, like that kind of natural vibration
that's coming from your upper pulley, like that's what's guiding your chain around. So, keeping it more consistently
um tucked up under the cassette with having lots of chain wrap around the cassette uh leads to faster, more
consistent shifting. It was what opened the door to being able to do a nine-to cog because that shift from 11 to nine
is particularly easy for the chain to like jump forward a tooth and start doing damage. But the new derailer
design was really the reason that we could pull it off. Nice. Definitely one thing I noticed just with the uh the
shifter, like you said, that super light action just makes it so easy to bang out gears. It's like amazing to just you can
almost just like flick it and it'll bang out gears, which is so nice. That's my favorite thing is to be in a race and
like in undulating terrain and be shifting like easy easy hard
and then just watching all the other riders around me. And I've heard arguments for it like being the other
way that less shifting uh trains you to widen your cadence span. So like you're a better athlete with a wider cadence
band. But uh I don't know man like Jerry's out on that one. Like I think
lots and lots of shifting might be a good way to go too. Huh. Yeah. even even after riding Di2 for
however long now and then you go back to mechanical. It's kind of crazy how much it's just such a different feeling, you
know, and like you can you can it's hard to explain it. To me, like the easiest way to say
is like going from an automatic car back to a manual car like you're thinking more you almost let like Hyperglide Plus
is a little bit different cuz you can still kind of smash through gears with power. Yeah. But you're you're still kind of thinking a little bit more about your
shifts or what is going on versus the electronic kind of like brainless almost. You're thinking about you're
thinking about the shift lever effort too, right? Where with GI2 you kind of you forget about that, you know?
Yeah. One of my favorite things which you could still kind of do on Hyperglide previous uh I should say mechanical 12
speed but the double shifts with the electronic which is something you can't really do uh on the RAM side is the the
push through the the double push. Um I was riding it undulating downhill but it had two or three climbs in it
whereas like pushing through to easier gear and it's like the two is perfect. It's like downhill up, shift two, and
then coming over the top, shift two down. And this was like boom, boom, boom, boom. And I did like like you said, like three, four times like
whatever a fivem minute downhill trail. Yeah. Yeah. I think on the on the cross country or down bike where you're changing speeds
more rapidly, like that's where I really enjoy that. Yeah. You know, on the enduro bike where maybe you do a fire road climb and then you
have like a little more time before you drop into a descent, maybe I do. I don't do it as much, but on the cross country bike, I feel like Yeah, I'm double
shifting all the time. Yeah, for sure. Right. Yeah. I think we kind of naturally ended up in that use case because that's where shifting is
valuable fast like constant shifting. But obviously, right, my average ride in
Orange County is a fire road to descent. It's just straight to the easiest gear.
Yeah. But yeah, it is amazing how quickly you can get all the way down or up the cassette with that if you just
pump through to the double shifts every time. It's pretty mind-blowing, honestly. Um, yeah. What do you guys say
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And now back to the show. And we're back with some more excellent
questions. Question four is where we're going to start. Awesome. Okay, this one's about battery
life and reliability and rough conditions. They're always big concerns. How have you tested the new system under
extreme trail conditions and what's the realworld battery life riders should
expect? Yeah. Uh I can talk a little bit about the development process. Um we have a
team of test riders that are kind of members of the product development team. So it's our skunk development program.
Um, and we've got five riders in the US and one in Sweden. Um, and in the US
we've got Adam Craig living in Maine, so he's got some rough conditions to test in. Bren Atkinson in Bellingham. Uh,
Nathan Riddle in Ashlin, so certainly they get snow in the wintertime, dry in the summertime. Uh, Joe Murray's in the
desert in Sedona, but they get a little bit of moisture, too. And then Paul Thomasber is in Bend, Oregon. Um, so
those are kind of the range of conditions that we get to test in regularly in addition to all of us riding in Southern California, of
course. Um, but uh, uh, we, uh, were
really kind of backed into a corner with getting a battery on the derailer in the first place. That was the most
challenging part of the design was that, okay, like we've made this decision, it's got to be a wireless electronic
system. Now, how do you get a battery in the derailer and work around the patents that are It's a minefield, right? Exactly. So, um
there it's really a longer story about it, but like the place that we found that we could put it was inside the
parallelogram of the derailer. And that it ended up opening all kinds of doors
for like making the derailer stronger, turning the whole thing into a big wedge shape so that it' get pushed out of the
way. But the space for the battery ended up being perfect, like really the best that we could have done. And I don't
think we ever would have come up with that if we hadn't been kind of backed into it, right? Um, and uh, so the idea
of well the parallelogram is already like a built-in cage that's protecting the derailer. Um, and then uh, the way
that the battery is secured in the derailer, that's the thing that had a bunch of patents around it, too. So making a door that slides into a channel
ended up being really really secure. And we could build in like modes of failure where the battery door is actually meant
to be uh, like a bumper like that. That's your point of failure. So, it kind of killed the need for being able
to replace like the individual parallelogram plates because you've got like this shock absorber built into it
that'll take all the impact and be your engineered failure point and it just is the battery door. And even if that happens, the battery still doesn't fall
out. But really kind of what I've been building up to is that the battery inserts from the bottom. So, the
electrodes are at the top facing down. And uh so there's no chance for water to pull around where the electrodes are
going to be. And uh that uh sliding door that slides along the channel what it
it's got a little wedge in it too. So it pushes the battery up against the seal and creates good tension against the
seal. And then uh we could make the seal really small and circular and a round seal is the best shape for a seal. Like
just you don't want any corners in your seals. Yeah. Um, so, uh, the the one thing we've
heard so far just laying it out on the table is that if you get this like really like watery, silty mud, it can
get like the idea is that not to seal the battery housing, just to seal the the terminals at the end of it. Um, so
mud can get in like into the battery housing. So, if you're riding in those really like soupy, muddy conditions,
just wash the bike right afterwards cuz if that silty mud dries, then you like
really got to work to get that battery out or like just get it wet again. I think that's really the answer. Yeah. But that was the uh uh maybe straight
away out of Leo Gang when it got raced for the first time was like, "Hey, so turns out don't let it dry."
Yeah. Don't don't pack it up, drive 4 days, and unload it the next race. So, what's the reasoning behind not wanting
to seal the whole battery compartment uh versus just the electrodes? Is it like if you seal it but water
still gets in there, it's now sealed inside? That could be. I I don't know. We didn't really have a question about or like a
conversation about it during the development. I think it was uh basically it's mountain biking like you're going
to go ride it in the mud and don't try to get keep the mud out. Basically, I mean, the the super basic engineering
principle is that you want to reduce your sealed off area as much as possible. And the smaller the seal is,
the uh the more effective it can be. Um, a couple generations ago, we made all of
our bottom brackets smaller, too. So, you can't can't tell so much on the pressin ones, but the thread in ones, like the cups all got smaller. And so,
it seems super weird that with all uh talk about the efficiency of larger bearings that we would come out with new
ones, and then the most expensive one was the smallest cups. then it's because the seals could be the smallest on those
as well. And so the seals are more effective when it's smaller. Um and also a smaller seal will also be
faster. True. Yeah. Yeah. There's less like friction
surface area there. Like you think of every molecule rubbing against some other molecule of something else. And um
it really is the same thing like all those water molecules are trying to get past the molecules of the seal and the
less of them there are then the easier it is to make a well- sealed system.
That's awesome. Nice. Yeah, I never really thought about that stuff. That's pretty cool. Never had somebody with knowledge about it explain it to me, I
guess. So that's very interesting. Um awesome. Well, how about this next one? L you
want to read that? Yeah. XT and Dior has been released after the big splash of XTR. Uh but
talking Di2 12-speed I would guess all three drives were being developed at the same time considering they came out
within a what month 6 week period from the XTR release to the XT and Dior it
was about that's about 6 weeks that's I don't remember what they were anymore it's in the past
it was it was a tight timeline yeah uh as you said you couldn't have developed transmission in the time you saw it to
the time this drivetrain was coming out likewise you can't just do Dior and XT
uh 6 weeks after XTR like they're being developed at the same time. Um what differences in design process does that
look like when you're developing three drivetrains at once? Yeah, that um so that was a new concept
for us. Uh and we were motivated to do it to get electronic shifting systems
out at like all the real like true mountain bike price points as quick as we could. Um, so we had like this good
reason to do it, but it ended up working out really well anyway and kind of feeds into uh like why there's no SLX group
now either. Um, cuz particularly with the previous generation, but every generation before that, right? I've been
in product development for basically 7 years, but been with Shimano for 19 as
an employee and was even volunteering to be a race mechanic with them before that. Um, and uh, uh, so I've seen over
and over and over again that the way that product development would always work was making this uh, dream like the
absolute best you could do, no holds bar, make an XTR group and then once it was done, which is maybe a year before
it comes out, then you start working on the XT version and and it's like, okay, how can I make it cheaper? And literally
not like one minute of work had been done on XT before you started. Um, and
even like the first micro spline free hub body that I saw for the XTR 12-speed
group when it came out was this much more complicated spline pattern that was
going to be lighter. And I asked like, can you make a steel version of this freehub body? And the engineers went, I
don't know. Because they like they literally hadn't thought about it. I remember that thing. Yeah. And so, uh, yeah, thankfully when
we were working with partners to like get other microspine freehub bodies in the world, I think it was DT that went,
"You guys are lunatics." Like, there's no way.
Uh, so I mean, we learn a lot from every generation. And I think that uh, yeah,
through that M9100 group and then the following 8100 and 7100 came out at the same time and then 6100 came out another
year after that. So, it really was this like phase development of starting really kind of over again with
XT and SLX at the same time and then Dior of like okay what do we want to refine about it and like what can we
where can we maximize value and reduce the the cost um and in some cases we
ended up on kind of a dead-end road and that ends up happening a lot with SLX right that like the SLX and XT cranks
were almost exactly the same and then the XT and SLX brakes were almost exactly the same like the cassette has
got one less alum aluminum cog and one more steel cog for SLX which is by far
the bestselling SLX component by the way that uh um just because the all steel Dior one like that 51 to steel cog
weighs I don't know 100 grams or something like that maybe 80 um and uh
uh so uh right co-development of three groups
that's the tangent that I started from uh so this time around really like it
was the first time that our product development team had been making three different price points from the very
beginning. Um and uh and it goes even a bit beyond that too like we were working
on the stuff that's going to come out next year at the same time too. So people will see kind of the rest anything that feels like it's missing
now. Um and uh uh but we could kind of make plans and not all of them worked
either, right? The like cuz the shifter maybe especially when it's electronic is like the hardest one to really
differentiate like how am I going to make a different electronic shifter and have three different price points. And
um the uh we ended up in a really good space with the Dior one. like no one's really been able to ride it yet, but it
gets rid of like the customizability of the paddles and it gets rid of the double click, but it still has a really
good tactile feedback and like just the normal position of the paddles is a pretty good intuitive. Like it basically
feels like a mechanical um shifter. Like you take what you get. Like the paddles
are where they are, but they're in a good spot. Like no one ever really was bummed that they couldn't slightly tweak
the position of those paddles. So definitely nice to have for XTR and XT, but doesn't really feel like you're
giving anything up for Dior. We ended up kind of touching with um and this was hot on the heels of the previous Dior
group, right? Like it then went into this next generation of electronic development. And what we had kind of
tapped into with Dior uh was that all of our decisions along the way ended up getting dictated on how important is it
for like real mountain bike riding. So, uh, right now like, uh, the Dior crank
uses solid arms and every previous Dior group had used hollow forged arms. So, the cranks were lighter and stiffer, but
like that's something that you would maybe rather have the cash in your pocket than have like on a mountain bike
ride. And uh, um, but there was another big debate about like, well, we could
make Dior cheaper if we did uh like 11 speeds or an 1150 cassette or something
like that. Um, but like I said earlier, like you kind of need a 500% gear spread for like modern real mountain biking.
And so those decisions went in two different directions. It's like let's like make the crank cheaper than we had
ever made it before, but let's make the drivetrain more expensive than we had ever made it before. And it started like
uh elevating Dior a little bit in some spaces like shifting quality um and uh
and lowering the price in some other spaces. And so, um, this identity of the brand though of kind of moving out of
like this weird no man's land of like nice stuff but a little bit overpriced and maybe a little bit of a waste in
some spots where you'd see like just a Dior shifter and a derailer on a bike that had nothing else from Shimano on it
to really kind of being like minmaxed out in like the right way. And I think
um because we really made it for that uh you're getting into mountain biking and you're getting serious about it or you
just don't care about spending a bunch of money on a mountain bike. Uh what is the bare minimum that you need and like
what's the best way we can execute it for the least amount of money? Like that being the identity of Dior um really
kind of got solidified when we were working on three groups together. So XTR ends up being like no holds barred. any
like idea that you got that we can reasonably execute like we're going to do it and that means like uh giving you
all the choices that we can offer you. So cross country and enduro options um
and uh yeah then short cage and the long cage derailer with the 945 cassette or the 1051 cassette. Um three different
brake options for XTR now. And so then XT gets paired down a little bit but
still kind of needs like some of those key options like the short cage derailer is popular enough. Um and then maybe
more aggressive riders that are more likely to use a short cage derailer care a little bit more about the replacement cost of the derailer in case something
does go wrong. Hopefully that's not an issue with the new super strong derailer, but it certainly had been with the previous generation. Um, and then,
uh, yeah, with Dior, I mean, all that's out right now is a shifter and derailer,
but, uh, it's only a long cage. It's a steel cage for the derailer. Like, the weight of the thing isn't really the top
priority. It's really kind of shifting performance, being able to shift quickly, um, with very little effort and
have it still be really intuitive. uh ended up yeah I think I keep coming back
to it is that we end like had this guiding light showing us the way the entire way like a really good identity
for XTRXT and Dior at this point. Nice. And in a roundabout way you kind
of answered why there's no SLX in the D2 line. Yeah. Um
Dior elevated itself to get enough performance in your guys' eyes.
Yeah. That SLX is kind of no man's land between XT and Dior now. That price
point too, I think is like for a little bit more than the price of an SLX
mechanical bike, you could now get a Dior Di2 bike. Um, and we kind of have a
bit of pride about the Dior brand, too, like this original concept of uh the Japanese engineers coming to America and
the UK and kind of studying this new thing of people riding their bikes off-road. And it it really even kind of
predates mountain biking a little bit. Like it was more like a trekking bike like cycl flat bar cyclacross bike like
uh and people riding those through the forest in in the UK. And so the engineers came over and was like it's
like you're uh just roaming freely through the woods like a deer just bounding through the forest. And so Dior
kind of sounds like if a Japanese person using to be technical like the katakana
alphabet which is what they use to approximate uh words from other languages like if you uh they don't have
individual letters they have syllables. So it's de and that kind of sounds like
deer. It's not really the Japanese word for deer but it's like how you would write deer if you tried to write it in
Japanese. So that's what Dior means. And so that legacy and history around it if we had to like cut SLX or Dior, we were
like Dior's a little cooler. We like it. Yeah. Yeah. Does that have like a logo with like the antlers?
Yeah. So I just picked up had got the Stump Chumper 15. We're going to go back to the Stump Jumper really quick. And then
I was like, man, I really want an old Stump Jumper with Dior deer head stuff
on it. And so finally found one. Got it off eBay. It's great. Uh I learned a fun
fact about the Dior stuff that I didn't know before. The rear derailer has a male deer head. The front derailer has a
female deer head. It's a nice touch. I didn't know. That's awesome. I love that. I love how
that idea jumping through. Is it old enough or is it too old for rapid rise?
Uh, too old. Yeah. Yeah. It's just a little thumb shifters up top. Yeah. So, this was first gen mountain
bike from Shimano. Okay. Uh M700 700. Uh, yeah.
Yeah. That's awesome. Is there like a Shimano like mountain bike museum or something
like that? Oh yeah, there's actually I was just there. So there's a museum in Japan and it's uh
it's not just a Shimano museum. It's a museum of bikes and so every bike in there is original except for one. So the
the first bike you go like walk through a display, the first bike itself is the only not original one. It's a replica of
what the first bike in the world looked like. Every other bike in there is an original. Wow. It's pretty unbelievable. And it's open
to the public. So, like if you're if you're ever in Japan and want to book a tour, Yeah. go look it up. Oh, that's epic. Um because I know there
is like a Marin Mountain Bike Museum, I believe, or something. Have you guys ever been to that? Mhm. Yeah. And they just they uh they
actually brought a display to the Northwest Tuneup, so they had like a little like road show version.
They had a booth there. Yeah. And Charlie Kelly was roaming around talking to people about the bikes, too. Sweet.
Oh, that's so cool. He was in front of me in line at the airport, actually, and he saw my Shimano shirt and introduced himself. Crap.
No way. Oh, that is so cool. Wow. I've always So, that museum is uh worth the
trip, huh? It is. It was one of the coolest things I've done over there. Just like walking through this, it was is really cool.
So cool. Wow. Definitely need to go to Japan one day. Um well, you kind of answered this a
little bit earlier, but from a rers point of view, non-engineers, what is what part of the new system are you
personally most stoked on and why? A lot. Well, yeah. I talked about shifting speed like from a cross country
racers perspective. Yeah. Uh, and I kind of um Yeah, I've I'm kind of bipolar with
my riding, too, cuz I like I ride a crossc country race bike like I have an IVX that I spend a lot of time on. Nice.
And then uh also have a transition patrol that's for smashing stuff a lot more. Um, but uh uh when I can like blur
the line between the two, like uh the new setup, we think we were talking about this earlier, is taking those XTR
cross country race wheels and putting them on the SB140. That's what I did. Yeah, that's pretty awesome.
Uh cuz I'm kind of I mean I'm heavy enough that uh I can notice stiffness
differences on cross country race wheels. And usually it's okay because you don't have enough traction to really
flex a wheel that much anyway. So I'm a little nervous about what's going to happen when I put real tires on them.
Um but I was going to put I was going to put like the the Schwabby radial casing tires on them too. And
that's I don't know if that'll be enough to rip them apart, but I'm keen to find out. Um and if I need to back it off a little
bit and start sliding around. But I mean, what has had me so stoked about these things is that uh I have been uh
it's been the most fun competitor testing um was all the like super high-end top-of-the-line crosscountry
wheels that we had to buy and I had to go like oh man had to buy
two to $3,000 wheel sets to ride. Shame. What a bummer, dude. even one of So
yeah, one of them ended up in Sweden and uh so I was super bummed to have to let
go of that set and this was somebody else's wheels so I won't give them credit but they're very nice wheels. Um
and uh and I was like, "Hey, I haven't heard a report about those wheels in a while. Like I bet those wheels are just
sitting in a box and I really want them back." So I asked him if he would ship me these wheels back from Sweden and uh
I did and I still got them. Um the uh uh I don't ride them anymore cuz
we have something better. I the one drawback to those things had always been that like uh if I'm in like race shape,
I'll be like 180 lb and right now I'm at like 200 lb. And I could tell as I'm gaining weight when I crossed 190
because that bike would start to handle different. And uh so to be a bit heavier
than that and still having a great time on our cross country race wheels like it's it's not really a stiffness thing.
I think it's like a predictability thing. Like they just ride really well. And I'm pretty surprised cuz we like
haven't I mean we haven't had a wheel business the last couple of years and we kind of just we're like let's try to just do a couple of cool things and
float them out in the market. Like it's not an OEM spec thing. It's basically just going to live in the aftermarket. And um yeah, if we only sell them to
people that want cool XTR logos on their rims that match the rest of the bike, then sweet. But that cross country
wheel, I think that thing might actually have some potential. So to see people get excited about it and to be that
excited about it myself. Like I'm I'm Yeah, I'm at a loss for words. Like
I didn't I didn't think we had it in us. They're impressive, honestly. I mean, I have put a couple hundred miles on them.
Similar weight, too. Yeah. Right. Pushing them hard. Yeah, definitely pushing them hard and haven't had any problems. I mean, it's
definitely impressive. Um I mean I have like dual forecasters on them so far. What kind of tires you running on them
yourself? I haven't uh like they're just the tire I've ordered Schwabi radial the Albert
um yeah trail casings. Nice. So that's basically I don't know. Am I going to I'm going up
to Big Bear this weekend. So am I going to bring you to bring those with you? Bring the X wheels up there.
Diabolical. I think I've got recon recon race on mine and a transition spur.
Nice. I'm into it. That's a sweet setup. Yeah. Yeah. What are you most stoked on so far? Uh I've got three things.
Nice. So I think uh the drivetrain, the brakes, and the wheels. Yeah, exactly. We did it. We did it.
That's um No, the uh I think the I don't know
the kind of Shimano answer. A little No, not Shimano answer, but like one of the obvious ones is the shifter. the shifter's rad and the adjustability and
like the feel. That thing ended up really cool. Um, the other one that's fun is the rear
derailer and mostly it's just hitting it, right? So, I think when I came up here and like present it to you guys, I think I hit it and so when Oh, like
Yeah. You didn't hold back. You sucked that thing. Yeah. And so that's been fun like when you show people for the first time like
that was pretty cool. um one of the sleepers of the group and not to keep
going on the cross country side, but we've been calling it the chicken beef combo brake. So, it's the enduro lever
with the two piston caliper. So, running that on like a down country or cross country bike, that brake is really good.
Like, I've been super impressed with how well two pistons work. Nice. And that's on your spur as well.
Yeah. So, that and Nick and I had a pretty funny conversation where I was like, you can't put 203 rotors on a two
piston brake. Like, you just can't do it. like you don't do that. And he's like, "You should try it." And I did. And it's been one of the coolest brakes
I've ever ridden for like a down country cross country balancing weight and and performance. It's really good.
Nice. Downyville brake. Down bra. I might have to build up a new bike for next year.
Yeah. With some other stuff. There you go.
It's funny you say that about two piston brakes cuz I don't remember I think it was at Forestall a couple years ago came with that formula two piston brake. It's
formula or breaking or something like that. The brand breaking and have you guys heard of that? Yeah, it's like an Italian brand I want
to say. Um, but it was like, you know, it's forall it's like 40 plus pound bike and we're like two piston break and it
was like one of the best feeling to I mean consistent like a lot of the reason
why I think you guys probably know more than I do, but four pistons is hard to get even every single time consistently,
especially as it wears and you get a lot of dirt and debris in there. two pistons are just going to cycle much more
consistently for a longer period of time, I think. Yep. How long do you want to talk about it? There's for sure
because we had had uh complaints about wandering bite point from before this previous generation where there really
only were two piston brakes and uh uh the refinements that came with the last generation fixed the wandering bite
point on the two piston brakes and no one rode them because they're two pistons, right? But uh they really like
RXT two piston brake has got more powerful than a lot of four piston brakes on the market. Um and it's really
just because it it like it's got the same amount of power. It's de developing the power of the brake lever instead and
trying to keep the caliper light and things are simpler back there. Like there really are a lot of arguments for running two piston calipers. Um, and
yeah, I mean, if obviously four is better, it's the same like struggle that
we have with like getting OEM spec on a 945 cassette can be a bit of a struggle because you
got to like sell it against a bike that's got more on it. Um, but uh uh
this is right. we're probably going to die on this hill. But, uh, if something just is more logical, whether it's the
cool thing or not, then we're going to keep making it and hope that the tides turn at least. So, yeah.
Yeah. I think the hardest thing for that is clearly explaining it to the consumer
like forward facing, right? Um, I think there's a lot of things in the bike industry that are kind of like that and
it's like, yeah, it's just not explained well enough. Yeah, we're that's big. And more is better. really our weak
point for a long time too. Well, a story that can sell itself. Like that's kind of what you need, right?
Yeah. And maybe that's why I called that break a sleeper, too, right? Is it kind of just like Yeah. Maybe doesn't get talked about
enough. Yeah. It's really enjoyable. Well, at least we're talking about it,
right? Yeah. We're telling the story now. You try out two piston brakes, you'll be pleasantly surprised. I think a Downingville bike with XTR and
Yeah. Uh, chicken beef chicken beef combo. Shout out to Eddie for that one.
XTR wheels. Tempted to go mechanical though. I know we're This whole thing is about D2, but
I just love mechanical shifting. Yeah. Hey, that was the Yeah, that's the end of that. I love mechanical shifting too.
A lot of people do. Yeah. Um, but yeah, this is what we got right now.
Cool. We have a few more That was a good transition. I was going to say perfect segue into break questions. We have a few more break questions before we uh let you
guys get back down south. So, um yeah, you kind of answered it, but I
know there's more intricacies of this. So, one of the longstanding critiques of Shimano brakes, maybe not long-standing,
but previous generation of four piston brakes has been the watering bite point. What exactly has been done to address
that on the new models? And how confident are you that the issue is fully resolved? Uh, wow. Well, throwing the word fully
in there is a a little bit of a monkey wrench because there's more resolve than
previously. Yeah. Well, there are there's dozens of reasons why a brake lever might engage
in a different point from one pull to the next. So, some of those things are going to stick around because one of
them could be like a a ruptured inner line of a brake hose or just a bad bleed
um or bad barbon olive connection. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So, um, but what we're really
talking about, I think, is the, uh, the inherent performance of the system and how it would change throughout the
course of a, of a ride or a lap. Um, and, uh, so the thing that was done to
address it was simply that, uh, we moved to a higher performance mineral oil
brake fluid that flows faster, but it also flows more consistently. though like the the name of it is low viscosity
oil but uh the consistency of the viscosity is really the more important thing at least in terms of the
characteristics of the fluid. The thing that really solves the problem though is a new piston seal that we're able to use
because of that new fluid. And so they're faster rebounding piston seals that have got a super consistent rebound
speed no matter what temperature they are. And that really like to your point about two piston and four piston that um
that's the hardest thing to get right is to get all four of those caliper seals to spring back the same at the same rate
and the same amount from one pull of the brake lever to the next. And just for uh
yeah, if you haven't gone down the rabbit hole of how a hydraulic brake system works yet, if you're not at that point in your mountain biking career, um
it's not like the spring between the brake pads that pushes the brake pads back. That's just there to keep them from rattling. It's a seal around the
piston at the caliper that uh that flexes when you pull the brake and then it rolls back when you let go of the
brake and that's what pushes the fluid back up into the brake lever and the master cylinder. So if those uh if those
seals don't roll back enough then when you are braking and then let go and then
pull again then uh your lever will I've told the story a little bit different
way than I usually do. So now I've lost track of where I am. Now you're backwards. Yeah. Um that uh okay, I just need to
say that's more likely to happen in cold conditions and then that'll get me better on track. So you've still
basically got some fluid like down in the lines when you go to uh to pull the lever again and so your bike point moves
out. And uh just looking at what that seal is doing in different temperature conditions cuz it also performs
different depending on like how dirty or muddy the trail is, how much things are vibrating around like other stuff. But
the temperature thing is a nice easy analogy that if it's hotter and that seal springs back with more force, the
fluid's even got some like momentum to it and it'll overshoot and hang out in the reservoir in the um in the brake
lever like above where the line is. And so you pull the lever again after letting go briefly and uh and the lever
will come closer to the bar. So really the key is consistent performance um in order to minimize like the change in the
feedback from the system. And maybe like the bigger point is this has is naturally going to become a bigger
problem as brakes become more and more powerful that uh like the two piston brake feels totally consistent with the
old seals and the old fluid cuz it was a less complex system at the caliper, but also because you had just plain less
leverage over the system. And uh the more power a brakes got, the more feedback it's going to give the rider.
Like those just are like there's an inverse relationship between those two things. So being able to um to balance
that. Yeah. Like I mean the easy way to do it would be to reduce the power of the brake. Um but kind of the the hard
way to do it is to really make the actual like function of the brake super consistent and that's changing the seals
in the fluid. I think one thing to add to that too is uh I've seen a lot of people say like, "Oh, there's a new high
performance fluid. Why don't I just put that in my old brake?" Please don't. Yeah. Uh Nick and I both got to be the
test dummies of that. And yeah, it was like this theoretical thing and they were like, "We should probably be sure." And then they sent it to us.
It's a good thing you made sure because, you know, at face value, somebody's going to want to do that. More is better.
Yeah. All right. The new fluid's got to be better than the old fluid. Thankfully, they sent us two brakes,
too. And thankfully, I like uh was like putting it on. I like maybe I'll just do the front. Yeah. I think our bike our bikes were
both internally routed and so we both said why don't we both just do the front like let's try that
and I think we had both the same experience of just straight to the bar. Yep. That's a good idea that you guys
just did one because that could have gone quite it wasn't the instructions either. It was here's a set
of brakes. Go test them. Um and the the scary thing about it too is that you know you're used to if your
brakes get hot and the lever pulls to the bar that you pump it. But if your lever pull pulls to the bar because
basically you've got the wildest wandering bike point you've ever felt in your life and it wanders so far that it comes to the grip. It's a wandering bike
point. So if you keep pulling it, it's like it's going to get worse. So uh yeah, pumping doesn't help. And like you
just don't have brakes. Wow. I think we rode the same trail but on different days but around the same time
too. So it was you guys had the same skid mark going off the trail. It was front brakes. So it was a little
a little more dangerous than skidding. Oh my gosh, that is too funny. You guys, good thing you didn't just go straight
for the steepest trail around, right? Just like, "Okay, let me go find something." Oh man, that's too funny.
Here's a bonus question I threw in here. Uh, you guys developed a new electronic
D2 drivetrain in the same time as developing new brakes. Was there any thought into making uh paddle shifters
like the previous drifters? No. What? It wasn't. That was so cool.
Those were sick. Some people love them. I we still hear that nuts instead. Not not enough to keep them in business.
Not Not even a DR2 accessory button somewhere on that lever. Uh there was a point where we tested cuz
like they're electronic switches. You can stick them anywhere. Um and uh
yeah, I I don't know. Maybe that can still come around in the future is that I don't think that it really was as useful as it as we thought it was going
to be when we tested it. And uh uh like it would need you couldn't really have any tactile feedback in a button that
was like on the tip of your brake lever. Like you could reach out and touch it really easily, but you'd be accidentally getting shifts when you were trying to
break, which was incidentally one of the problems with dual control or vice versa. Yeah. Dual control. That was the name of
it. Mhm. Very concentrated. Use the bike shop slang there, I think. Yeah. The brifters. I think that's maybe a UK
thing like a lot like they call the road ST levers. Yeah. On the road side, I hear brifter
more. Yeah, cuz it is a break and shifter. But do do you remember those paddles? Yeah,
totally. Did you remember the rapid rise? Do you know what that is? No. No. Yeah. Okay. It's when derailers were backwards.
The spring instead of springing down to the smallest cog. It natural position was to spring into
the easiest cog and shifter moved different to the the derailer moved different to the shifter.
So, it's like a traditional shifter, not like the indexing lever, but it was just backwards. Yeah, basically.
Right. Wow. So, those are really when I'm working at the bike shop, I'm sure you came across them, too. They're really fun to come across.
Yeah, that's wild. It was all backwards. Yeah, I they were still current when I started at Shimano. Like, we came out with the
970XTR group a couple months after I started or maybe like two weeks before I
started, but I was uh yeah, I started in 2006 answering the phones in the
customer service and tech support department. And that was basically and that was what we were working on at races. I guess that first year we were
taking off dual control, although we still had dual control for the 970 group. Um, so yeah, it still stuck
around a while. I guess I was still riding it all through the the end of the the N-speed days. Um,
dual controls, 8-speed. Uh, no, it was all nine-speed. The 960
generation was the one that was known for dual control and then it would just stuck around as an option for 970, but
970 was really the return of the pod shifter again. And we had both rapid rise, right? Cuz dual control and rapid
rise came together. They were at the same time. And uh which is handy because it meant that when you were pushing down
on the brake lever, you were pulling both pulling cable on both sides. I guess that would need to happen either
way, but you also would be getting a harder gear when you push down on the brake lever. And because you needed to totally relearn how a shifter worked and
just really important. This sounds like like looking back on the mistakes that we made, but these were literally the
exact same words that were being used to like talk up the grip at the time that like you're about to relearn how to
shift your bike. And so it's it's handy that it's rapid rise because you're going to be pushing down and
accelerating on both sides. Um, amazing. when I was wrenching at, you know, average shop in Ventura, I'd come across
some of these and have to relearn how to work on bikes cuz I'm like, what is going on? You know, and this was
probably 2012, so this stuff was phasing out, but it's still like pretty common.
I mean, enough bikes still roll. Enough bikes were still having that stuff on there, 2012, 2013 that Yeah. It was still like putting nine-speed chains
on these bikes and figuring out why this derailer is in the spokes. It should be all It should be all the way down here.
Yeah. Yeah. We definitely had somebody come in the shop not too long ago with that setup, the dual control. Um, and they
had either needed it was like either like a brake lever or something and I'm like, how do you tell this person they need only brakes and drivetrain?
I mean I mean what do you do, right? Cuz that you can't really get replacement parts for that stuff nowadays anyways, right? I mean
I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't think so. You can you can search from eBay and find some but
I don't know why but I pictured this person coming in with their brakes moto too for some reason since we were just talking about everything being
backwards. I don't that thought just popped in my head even though it's probably not what happened.
Super fun and nostalgic though. You got to love it. Was there any We're kind of We have a
few more questions but we're kind of getting long here. Um
I guess of these what would be your biggest reason for
someone to upgrade say they had previous XT or XTR brakes to the new ones?
That's a good question actually cuz uh uh not everybody had issues with
wandering bite point on the previous break. It kind of depends on where you live and what kind of riding you're
doing. Um, so let for simplicity sake, let's assume that we're talking about the four piston brakes both before and
after. Um, that uh the there's a a bit of a difference in the feel, but it's
kind of subtle. So like if you were happy with the like 8120 brake or the
9120 brake, any of the like the previous generation four piston brakes, uh you're definitely going to like the new ones.
Um, so the wandering bite point is like the big like overwhelming story that it's a perfectly consistent break, but
if you weren't having consistency issues before, then that kind of means that there's no difference, right? Um, so the
rest of it is uh uh kind of uh yeah, we could still call them generational
improvements, but um maybe a little bit more subtle and worth telling that story that maybe people don't hear a lot too.
Uh, one of the um like XTR specific ones is an ergonomic study. I guess it kind
of applies to XT as well that uh um the new brake levers move a lot more like in
line with the way that your body is naturally moving. And I was pretty skeptical of this concept when I first
heard it, but uh one of those test writers, Nathan Riddle, had uh like made a proposal in like his monthly report,
made a drawing for a brake lever with a pivot point super close to the bar and then he laid his hand over the drawing
to like illustrate why he wanted that. And uh uh I think our intuition is that you like put your hand on the grip and
reach straight out and think about where your knuckle is bending. And that's the distance from the grip that your pivot point should be so that the tip of the
brake lever is tracing an arc around it. So, it's uh base it's as as much in a
straight line as it could be. Like it's moving out in the beginning and then hitting its like inflection point and
then starting to come back in. And Nathan's point was I want the exact opposite of that. I want to take advantage of the fact that the tip of
the brake lever traces an arc. And because I don't ride reaching straight out from the grips and pulling straight
back. I ride elbows out and with my fingers pointed in. And so I can take advantage of the fact that the brake
lever is constantly moving in like one constant direction as long as I'm on the
top of that arc. So I want the pivot point to be close to the bar so that I'm always having the tip of the brake lever
move outwards and that's the direction that my fingers move in. Anyway, the engineers were stoked on that cuz it was
like, "Wow, thanks for doing my homework for me." Like that's a great idea. Um like we're looking for those kinds of
breakthroughs. Um, but then the engineer actually had a great idea to add on top of that that like he looked at how your
hands actually are on the handlebars and uh and noticed that they're kind of like yeah angled up and out as well. So he um
uh tilted the brake levers up by a couple of degrees and now it just feels like your hand like nests in there. Um
so that ergonomic improvement uh we get the upswept lever blades for XTR. We get the close pivot point on both XT and XTR
but we give up the upswept lever blade on XT. M it costs more than you would think.
And uh the rest of it though is uh um stiffness of the caliper. We picked up a
lot of stiffness at the caliper. And then uh we get some improved efficiency at the brake lever. Like it's just
better at transferring power. A good chunk of that actually is from that ergonomic benefit that it's working the
way your hand is and more of what you think you're putting into the lever is actually going into the hydraulic system. Um, and so where we notice that
difference on the trail, uh, in particular is, uh, like the really
precise like crucial braking, like you're on a steep technical trail and trying to like gauge the point where
you're going to like release and like roll over a rock and hit the big drop or something like that. And uh um or maybe
if it's a little bit faster and you need to like shut it down quick and the trail is super steep and aggressive. I think
uh uh a good place where the new brake separates itself from the old brake is when you're really deep in the stroke.
That really was the point was that uh the efficiency at the lever and then the strength at the caliper end continue to
ramp up power when you're really deep in the lever stroke. And so, uh, yeah, by
comparison, the previous brake, if you'd get deeper in the lever stroke, it would feel like you'd get a like a diminishing
return, um, as you pulled harder and harder on the brake. It wasn't ramping up the power at the same rate that it had been earlier in the stroke. And now
it's a lot more like linear and predictable. Um, so it's, uh, I really
notice a difference in the confidence that it inspires in the places where you need confidence the most on the trail.
That that is awesome that you said that because I kind of felt like that. I used to have older generation Shimano brakes
and you kind of feel like the harder you squeeze like you're you're like you want more power, right? But with these new brakes, I definitely
noticed that like consistently. I mean I I have yet to see like the full
potential of the power, but it is there there's definitely plenty of power on tap for sure. Yeah. I just had a buddy ask me, we were
riding pretty steep trails on I was riding the XT brakes and he basically asked me that. He said, "Well, when I
had the XTR, I was on my last bike. I felt like the the power diminished a bit
as I was like getting into steep stuff and I was riding them quite a lot and I was like, I don't feel that at all." I was like, I feel like I have so much
power right now. Um, you know, but yeah, it's it's cool that that is an actual like improvement.
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, if the guy was asking to like know if he should upgrade his bike or not, if those points speak
to you, then there's a reason to like get the new brakes. But if all of those things are like, well, I don't ride my
bike that way, then let's be upfront that like, no, you're not going to get any benefit then.
They look sweet. The cables are closer to the bar. Yeah. Parallel master cylinder. It's the
modern aesthetic, man. Nice. When I mean for someone who is upgrading on the aftermarket side, one of the neat things we did is we included
if you buy the brake kit, you get a metal set of pads and a resin set. So you can really start to tune the brake
feel that you want, right? So if you maybe thought Shimano brakes were a little bitey or something like that, try
the resin pad. Like it totally changes the characteristic of the brake. Nice. Yeah, that's something I'm looking
forward to trying too. I've only tried the ones that it comes with. They come pre-installed with metallic pads. Yeah, that's how it had been for
yeah 15 years or so is that a uh they come with one set of pads and um so we
have to choose everybody chooses like a distributor that imports from Japan they would choose and so we pay a different
price for the different brake pads and like with the high-end ones we could even do non-finn if we wanted to bike
manufacturers do the same thing so we tend to see uh particularly with like resin and S or
Dior and SLX brakes we'd see resin pads because they're cheaper um and uh maybe the non-fin ones maybe not uh depending
on how much they feel like they stand out. Um but for uh aftermarket sales
through Shimano North North America, we always decided that like let's give people the best one. So always the finned metal pad and then wait a couple
of years and then we have a bit of a reputation for an on-off feel. And so that was why we really like we just um
felt like the resin pads had to come in the box because uh even Vital at the end of the summer last year, they did this
big brake shootout and they're like wondering during the test that like these brakes feel great. Like what how
come like I'm used to them being such an onoff feel. Like they must have done something with them and they like
accidentally got a set of brakes sent to them from like a team inventory or something that had resin pads in them
and that was the only difference. They like they figured it out later. So like the just in the chart it shows up that
like oh yeah there were resin pads and turns out that even they love Shimano brakes when they got resin pads in them
and if you don't for any other reason then sweet. Yeah. I'm not going to try to convince you but important for them
to come in the box. I think give it a shot. Yeah. Well people are very diehard uh Shimano
brakes if they love them. So we uh yeah we have a lot of conversations about that. It comes up
all the time that like you can chase what somebody else is good at. Um, but I never want to kind of uh disappoint
people who have been fans of the way that we've done stuff in the past. So, I wouldn't want to like dull the break
feel or anything like that. Anything that we could have done like comments
for uh, you know, diminishing your all your fans, right? Exactly. I think
Yeah. Like Yeah. You could copy somebody and then just be the second person that made it or you can go off and be your own. And really, I mean, I think the key
to product development is figuring out what your competitors are doing poorly and especially try to do that really
well. Yeah. Nice. Awesome. Well said. Yeah. Awesome. Thank you guys so much
for joining us up here. We really appreciate it. It's awesome to learn a bunch about the whole development process and a lot of the behind the
scenes stuff that we weren't really uh privy to prior to this. So, Mike came up and did explain everything
to us. We just uh aren't good at retaining information. All you remember is me hitting the
trailer. That's it. I just remember that only. Like the shift's good.
Batteries beep boop. Yeah, exactly. Awesome. Uh yeah, thank
you guys again so much for coming up. It's been awesome. And uh thank everybody for tuning into this episode.
We truly appreciate it. And we'll see you guys in the next one. Cheerio. Thank you. Love you.
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