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100 Miles of MTB, Treasure Hunts, Hardtails & Listener Questions For Days... Ep. 164 [Podcast]
Today on the podcast, the guys discuss Jeff's wild 100 mile ride as well as the absolute insanity that was the KETL Rocky Mountain Oyster Challenge before jumping into a classic set of listener questions ranging from bike selection to Q factor and everything in between. Tune in!
Worldwide Cyclery YouTube Channel
Submit any and all questions to podcast@worldwidecyclery.com.
Join us on epic mountain bike trips that you will never forget in locations like Tasmania, Italy & Nepal. Grab $250 off any All Mountain Rides trip by just mentioning WWC: https://worldwidecyclery.com/blogs/worldwide-cyclery-blog/all-mountain-rides-all-inclusive-mountain-bike-guided-trips-w-worldwide-cyclery-crew
If you are one strange human that would like to read a transcript of the podcast above, continue reading below!
[Music]
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to episode 164 of the MTB podcast presented and
hosted by Worldwide Cycle Ketl Mountain Apparel and Trail One Components. I'm Jared. I'm Jeff. And I'm Liam.
That is right, ladies and gentlemen. We are joined by special guest Jeff Cayley. We're graced with his presence. And in
this episode, we discuss Jeff's bonkers 100 mile mountain bike ride back east, the insanity that was the Ketl
Mountain Rocky Mountain Oyster Challenge, plus some classic listener questions ranging from Q factor to what
kind of bait would catch us if we were fish and everything in between.
Think about that. Listener questions that everyone wants to know. Yes, that everybody. Q factor and bait.
Yes, there's a lot more than that. There's a lot more to it and that's why we say everything in between. There's always more to the listener
questions. Always good, insightful questions from mountain bikers to mountain bikers.
Always always plenty to learn from listener questions and also always plenty to learn from Zach's words of
wisdom. Being a winner is above all else.
So that that quote actually came from
uh Mason Johnson who was uh he calls himself uh the Minnesota kid that found
level one jar 7. That's what he wrote in this subject line. So he writes this
email to treasuremount.com during the treasure hunt last weekend. And this this is what he wrote. I'm just going to
read it because it's hilarious. After a wild goose chase, that was the level one jar. That was the one and only jar to
make it into my soft hands. For the prize money I won, it was exciting. Yet, it is merely just materialistic.
However, the memories of this day will last a lifetime. This experience sums up that quote, "An experience is worth more
than a materialistic object." A statement that is actually false because had I not found that first jar, my day
had been uneventful and I a loser. bringing me to my final conclusion that
being a winner is above all else. That's hil That's hilarious.
And then he says, "Thanks, Jeff, for teaching me that I need to be a winner in life first in order to have the best experiences second. I will die young in
a long, long time." Hilarious. There's also a pulling a quote off our
clothing, basically. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um Yeah, exactly. Die young as late as possible. We put that
on the kettle stuff all the time in the emails and whatnot. So yeah, that that that was hilarious. I I was cracking up.
Um so anyways, and and I sent that to Zach and I said, "This sounds like you.
This should be your words of wisdom." And he said, "Yeah, definitely."
So that's where I came from. Amazing. Yeah, he did. He did. He was like, "Oh, I have some words of wisdom
right here. I just need to find it." I was like, "Okay, that's what he said. He goes, "There's
so many chats. So, I don't know where it's at. Yeah, it was in the treasure hunt chat group. There's a lot going on
last weekend in that, that's for sure. Awesome. Well, you know what else is awesome is Daniel's fun fact. There is a
mushroom that can control the minds of ants. Cortiseps fungi infect ants, hijack
their brains, and force them to climb plants before sprouting a spore stock from their heads.
Yeah, I think I've seen that on planet Earth or something before. Me, too. Pretty cool. There is some just the
weirdest stuff going on with insects and plants and stuff like that. Especially if you ever go to the Amazon and see
weird things like that. It's it's fascinating, but also just weird, abnormal. The animal kingdom is extremely weird,
abnormal, and fascinating. Yeah, absolutely. Very cool. You know what else is very cool is this fantastic testimonial.
You can't read that whole thing. Oh yeah, I can. Nine paragraphs. It's like three sentences.
After being rear ended in a car accident, my bike was unfortunately totaled. I was feeling overwhelmed and unsure of where to start. But then I
reached out to James at Worldwide Cycling Nevada team and everything changed for the better. From the moment I contacted him, James was incredibly
kind, compassionate, and understanding. Not only did he take the time to listen to my concerns, but he also made sure I
felt supported throughout the entire process. He walked me through different bike options, answering all of my questions with great knowledge and care.
James truly went above and beyond to help me find the perfect replacement bike. His customer service was topnotch.
He was informative, patient, and always available to assist me with any issue I had. Thanks to his help, I am back on
the trail with a new Yeti, and I couldn't be happier. If you're looking for someone who is not only skilled, but also genuinely cares about your
experience, I highly recommend reaching out to James at Worldwide Cycling. You won't be disappointed. That's high
praise. That's high praise, man. James deserves it. He does. He's really I was going to say James is probably the most kind and compassionate customer
service rep. He is. Yeah. Yeah. puts his heart and soul into it. Mhm. And you got to love it. You'll love to
see it. Yeah. He's a good dude. Super good at what he does. Um and also a massive bike
nerd that loves to just talk about bike stuff all the time. Truly. Yeah. One of the biggest biker nerds I know. James, I know you're listening.
Mhm. He will he'll show me send me photos of bikes that he just got like scored this off the pink bike for the steel.
Yeah. Every time I go to Nevada, he's got a different bike and he's got this one on pink bike. I got this. I'm like,
dude, people think we roll. Yeah, I was going to say people think we roll through bikes and like I don't I roll
through bikes a season, but not like, you know, six a season. James is wheeling and dealing every other month.
Dude, if there was like a for bike addiction, like I'd probably I'd probably be there
with James. Remember we were going to film that YouTube video? Oh, yeah. We had a whole script written out. We
just never did it. Jared is addicted to bike parts. It's true. We had all those funny video
clips we were going to have of you buying bike parts and sleeping with bike parts and Yeah, that could have been a
funny video. It's really true as evidence. If anybody wants to fund the production cost of that video, please please do
shoot us over some money. Huh. Because I don't
could be yelling at you. Never know. That's true. Um but yeah, a good sponsor for it.
That's true. That's true. Speaking of, we could sponsor out the pod one of these days, you know. Yeah,
get some revenue in there. I know. You know, we really we really should. Is is the fact that Saram has
now finally started to sell CRAM and Rock Shock Consumer Direct on their own website. Yeah, as of
it's happened. I don't know. It must have been just just they just clicked the button. Oh, yeah. They don't even say anything.
Yeah, I knew it was going to happen. The the 1987 kits and the reverb access are now on
you can buy direct from Oh, only those though. I thought they had those for a while. No. So, so Cork and Zip have been
consumer direct and time since they purchased time for a long time and they've never had
anything Cam or Rock Shock available for purchase. It's all the same website,
right? When you toggle between the brands, it's the same site. So, literally all they have to do is probably click an active. Yeah, it's all it's all set up
and it goes Yeah. just like switch it over. So, if the uh bicycle retail world and independent
bike shops around the world weren't already just on the ground gasping for air, there is now more salt in the wound
with uh the you know, the first you had Fox go consumer direct and now you've
got Sam. So, well, you know, maybe would be interested in advertising on the podcast
for uh sales on their website.
It's not a bad idea. It could happen. But you know what? I guarantee you that they will not be discounting stuff on their own website.
Right. You want You guarantee that? Guarantee that. Okay. I won't guarantee it cuz Fox, I'm
pretty sure, has been already doing. Yeah. When push you're in a bad financial position like all everybody in
the bike industry is right now. Yeah. Yeah. God only knows what could happen. God only knows. I mean, they might not like discount
current product that's hard to get, but they're getting a discount, right? That's what I mean. Like, they won't just do like Black Friday, you
know? Yeah. It's it's just a unfortunate structural change, right? Because as every single brand, component brand and
bike brand, offers a consumerdirect channel, you then now have all of the media outlets that basically are losing
all their traffic and revenue to all these other different things like JGPT and the way Google's shoving results
down and all that. So, they're just littering their sites with ads and trying to sell you outside Plus subscriptions. And then you have all
these bike shops who have zero incentive or profit motive or even ability to make profit selling this stuff. And it just
like everything fails. There's no stoke for the product. There's no hype for the product. There's no good retailers for the product. It's doom and gloom, man. I
don't know what else to tell you. Yeah. On that super optimistic note, how about the bikes and rides we've been enjoying lately?
Still some great bikes out there. Our our guest Jeffrey bringing down the I know. I know.
Jeff, with this attitude, you're not getting invited back to the podcast. The bikes and rides. Speaking of which,
bikes are so good. Bikes are Luca. Luca was talking about today um
friend of ours he what was it he he was talking about the World Series of baseball and Otani is the best
performance sports history or something and then he was talking about how different base like how hard it is to
compare you know baseball today versus what it was in the 50s right it's just the bats
are different everything just so much stuff different and then he actually asked me about mountain biking well mountain biking really didn't even really exist until
the mid '9s in a sense um and he was just kind of surprised I didn't realize it was that sort of new of a sport in
comparison to a lot of other more traditional sports. But it is funny to think. I mean, if you look at a mountain
bike from the year 2001, I mean, the thing is archaic. It's crazy how
different it is now and how how optimized to ride that. Yeah. Yeah. They're they're death traps
almost. For sure. Um and now there's they it's just the the bicycle has evolved so far.
Yeah. Um, it's pretty cool. Take take the best downhill bike. Let's
just go 20 years back from 2005. Yeah. And ride that to the lightest
least amount of travel full suspension XC bike you have. And I'll take that lightest least amount of travel XC bike
every single day. Yeah. The current bike. Yeah. From 2025. Yeah. But you know what's funny is like
not everything was like right like like you said mountain bikes are relatively new in that space but like you think about cars like in the early 2000s like
that was a lot of people would say like that's peak auto I would or like late 90s early 2000s like
it depends what auto engineering you're talking about right like long cars built
to last for the longevity I do think that's like probably the peak like minimize technology like I'm going
to buy a truck from that era you know like but you know obviously like a crazy
electric car. That's that's a different type of automotive, you know, technology, right? Obviously didn't exist.
But yeah, they're just different. But yeah, but then bikes, like you said, the bikes like now they're like as good as
they've ever been. Mhm. And I, you know, Yeah, it is cool. I mean, riding a modernday bike, I mean,
even just in in my, you know, relatively short existence as a mountain biker for 20 years. I guess it's not that short,
but yeah, relatively. Starting to ride at age 13. I mean, the the bike that I rode and raced on as a
teenager, which didn't have a dropper post, uh the one by drivetrain was sort of jerryrigged by myself with a chain
guide cuz there was no narrow wide tooth chain rings. Um there was no clutch in
the derailer. So, yeah, you had to have a chain guide to run it. The rear set didn't have enough range, but you just
dealt with it. Um the brakes were terrible. No, basically no traction, 26-in wheels. I mean, it's so different
now. Um, 20 years later, how good bikes are, which is cool, but you know, now they're a little bit of a plateau
potentially. We'll see. Can't really can't really ever predict that. I mean, they've no they've undoubtedly plateaued
in just the last four years, but we'll see where they go in the next 10. Yeah, it's hard. It's hard to imagine how much
better they could get, but you never know. It's true. You never know, man. I see a lot more innovation just being
dumped into the ebike space. Yeah. He has a lot of focus on that. Well, that's the only place anyone's making
any money these days. Yeah. I just don't see how I can make an XC bike that much better or trail bike
that much better. I mean, I guess I think eventually it's going to boil down to like, you know, carbon technology, right? Like how much
better can the carbon get? Cuz that's obviously the fundamental and you know, most the most common material we're using, right?
Like if the carbon gets, you know, twice as strong and half as light, right? Yeah. And maybe half as expensive.
Yeah. Yeah. Doubtful. But I mean that's that's a problem. the plateau is is it's kind of
you you're still seeing improvements, but they're they're small, they're subtle, and they're outrageously expensive. Yeah.
Um and like if if the carbon gets half as light, your 33 lb enduro bike is going
to be 31 and a half, 32, 30, 30 lb. Pretty nice. I still think it would be cool.
No, it would be, but it's not like we're still at like a minimal improvement. Incremental gain.
We're not moving the needle a lot. Marginal gains. Yeah. How speaking of Speaking of which, how was your ASR during your 100 mile
mountain bike ride? Fantastic. Is that the Was that the tool for the job? Would you have picked any other
bike? Yeah. So, so that ride was uh the Moco Epic and I think it was the 15th annual
Really Epic. That is put on by Moore, which I don't Do you have that acronym memorized?
Uh Maryland Montgomery County Off-Road Cycling Association. I don't know. They they maintain
Mid-Atlantic. Mid-Atlantic. Um they are the trail stewardship
that that basically maintains a huge amount of trails in the greater Maryland and DC area.
Mid-Atlantic off-road enthusiasts. More. There we go. Um yeah, they're amazing. So So they
also are the ones who um have a huge hand in maintaining the shed, which is
what the new Trail One rim and wheel set is named after. Nice. Um and they're Moco Epic. they do every
year and there's sort of a little jump jam and then they have all these different distance rides that connect all the local trails around there. And I
think this was the first I think they said this was the first year they offered the 100 mile distance um but it
was self-navigated whereas all the other courses the I think you know the 20 30 50 70 mileers had arrows and stuff. So
the 100 mile was self-navigated and it actually got postponed due to
rain um cuz a big nor easter which you guys probably don't know what that is. Oh, I'm familiar. You
about a noraster? I know what a nor easter is. I never lived through one, but I've heard of them. I don't know what a noraster. It's just the name of a big storm that
happens in the northeast. Um, basically was coming in and it looked like the weather was going to be terrible on
Sunday and they were worried about, you know, safety, the volunteer participation, all that sort of stuff. So, so they ended up Friday night
postponing it to the week after. Dang. And I was only out there until Monday. I was flying back home when I And so I
just told, so I was planning to do this with all the guys from the B team. They just told me they were doing it and I said, "Hey, can I tag along? Sounds
really fun." And we we sponsored an aid station and all that. Um, but it got
postponed and I said, "Guys, let's just do it anyway." I said, "Let's just see what the weather looks like Sunday
morning and if it gets terrible, we'll, you know, we'll just pull the shoot, but let's just try it anyway." Uh, it's
weather. You never know what happens. So, anyways, the weather ended up not being that bad. It took us a super long time to do the 100 miles. It was, I
think, 90% single track, which was awesome, but also very tiring.
physical and slow. Yeah. Um and so yeah, a lot of just upsy downsy meandering around. No, no, not
not really one single huge ascent or descent. Um but really well-built trails, really
well maintained, super fun, took a long time. Um the B team guys, uh you know,
they had their highs and lows and ups and downs. Well, let's also say it took a lapse
time of 16 hours and a moving time of 12 and 1/2. 12. Everyone has ups and downs with 12
and a half hours of moving and 16 hours of being on a bike. A lot of people look at that and that seems like it took forever. It's like
just just if you just do it yourself and then tell me that that took forever. Yeah. Cuz 100 miles of single track. Um it
takes a long time to do that and it's hard on your body and and in this time of year the sun went down at I think we
started at 8. We wanted to start at 7:30, but we started at 8 and Yeah. got got dark by 6:45 and then so we were a
huge amount of that was in the dark. Um it was just a long time. You spent you spent almost half the time in the dark.
Yeah. So, but because they had postponed it, we were basically just out there rogue um by ourselves. So, we did our
own aid stations. So, Taylor was in Taylor was there. So I had her basically we we stocked everything in the rental
car and we met her at uh basically mile 25 50 75 and then the finish.
That's so nice. So we basically self supported it and and she ran the portable aid station. Um
it was a ton of fun. I mean it was awesome. A couple of the guys uh had had some good crashes and and got back up
which is hard to deal with on a ride that long but um it was awesome. The trails are are well done out there. Um,
but man, it's I think it's an experience that's worth doing just because you get to see how fun it is and you learn about your body and how long your body can
last and how to eat food and all that sort of stuff and yeah, it was a good time. What did I learn?
I mean, I I I had I estimated 14 to 16 hours and all those guys just thought I
was out of my mind and that was way too long and I said, "I I've done a couple things like this. I've I know how long this is going to take."
Well, I think on the podcast when we were talking about it, I think I said it's going to take 10 to 12 moving
based on average speed of terrain. So, yeah. And and those guys, I mean, a lot
of those guys had never ridden over 50 in their life. I think Matt's longest ride was 30 or something or 40.
Wow. So, so yeah, it was uh you know, and they all did honestly way better than I
had anticipated. They all rode super well and held together and and just the the group chat the weeks prior I
thought, "Oh, this is going to be an absolute disaster, but there's just so much sarcasm and I don't know all of
them that that well." And then once it got down to it as, "Oh, no. These guys are taking it serious." Like, they actually have been paying attention and
planned out their food and they're pacing correctly. Good. That's good. You don't have to like babysit them and be like, "Are you
eating? Are you drinking?" Yeah. It was much better than I thought it was going to be on that front. Um, but it was a really fun experience and
uh, yeah, and it it and it did rain for probably the last six or so hours, but a
really light rain. So, the dirt was actually really good most of the ride. It was barely muddy um, at all for the
whole second half. Couple little creek crossings here and there, slippery bridges, but um, it was really fun. It's a good time. Good mountain bike ride to
do. And then they did do the event the following weekend, which is when uh, David and Mcccluskey and Matt were back
out there running the aid station and everything. So, we did have a whole Worldwide Cycl Kettle and Trail One
sponsored aid station out there. So, maybe some of the listeners got to enjoy the aid station, but
epic. Yeah, that's super. It was epic, man. Epic. It was the Moco Epic. The rogue Mo Epic. Nobody was out there.
That's honestly impressive that you were able to ride so much single track in that distance. Like, I'm like thinking, where could you even do that out here?
Like, unless you're just looping the same trail like Yeah. I mean, yeah, that is unique about that area.
It's all it's all connected. You know, you had very few little road connectors here and there. Um, and you know, you
could tell riding that route there there was a few weird sort of, you know, it it for the most part was a giant oval
clockwise 100 mile loop and then there was a couple of these weird little sort of lollipop shape out and backs to just
hit additional single track to get the mileage. But the route was really well done. Wow. Um, and yeah, there's, you know,
it's possible because there just is that much single track out there that's all maintained and good to go. So, it was
really fun. That's awesome. Should do it next year, Jared. Maybe I will. Yeah, miles.
Maybe on your we can do our Backbone challenge with Titan and I. That's true. Probably probably do it in like
I don't know with my wrist February, March or something. Sounds like a great time. Yeah. Yeah. Wasn't there an unofficial Backbone
pointto-oint mountain bike ride? It's a ride. Yeah. But they do the legal route as
well. So you have to drop down a PCH like two times, I think. Yeah. And back up. Brutal. Yeah, that is annoying that just certain
portions are hike only. Yeah, it is silly. And they're good. Yeah, they're the best the best
portions. The worst portion is the one in Sycamore, which is bike bikable. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. The other ones Yeah, that is kind of lame. Yeah, makes sense. That is lame. That's pretty cool. Well,
my rides weren't that cool, but you know. Yeah, I did get to sample some of our local hero dirt, which is like
Oh, yeah. It rained good here, huh? Yeah. Yeah. I got out a few rides on the mte,
our demo MT. Yeah, this that bike is just so good. Yeti mte. The Yeti MT what the M stands for.
I have to imagine it's mid travel. Mid travel. It's honestly one of the most fun bikes
just bar none bike I've ever ridden. Like the GO is so good. the suspension
platform 6finity so good the weight like with the motor it makes you just and plus the hero dirt I was like I was just
giggling like a child looks a lot better than the LTE too. Yes. Like it just looks like a I mean it doesn't look that much
different than their normal down tubes. Yeah. Yeah. Like Yeah. Yeah. But I'm super stoked on that bike.
It's really fun. Yeah. Simultaneously, as as ebikes are getting smaller and more efficient
batteries and motors and the down tubes are getting smaller, every brand's normal non-ebike is just getting these
larger down tubes for weight, stiffness, rigidity, whatever. Or like down tube storage down tube
storage. Yeah. So, they're all they're really looking similar these days. Like the Ritual I was like looking at like a Rail 29 that came in that blue
one that came in. I'm like, "My god, that thing is like sexy." And I was like, "Oh, it's cuz they they
made the down tube bigger for the Ritual." Yeah. I was like, "Oh, the ritual is still sick." But like, man, that rail
has such nice lines on it. It's also probably the rebel decal in the downtown. I got multiple compliments when I was
out in Colorado setting all those treasure jars uh for being on a normal bike. Oh, yeah.
Like hikers see you and they go, "Hey man, good to see you on an old school bike." Right. Like this is just this is what
I'm doing. I know people do that all the time when I'm out there as well. But um you know, my mentality with this
dirt was like I'm trying to get as much of this as possible. So, I took the ebike out and it worked. It was great.
Yeah. Um and yeah, I also put the um lightweight wheels back on my SP140 to
kind of get a little more XCI. Mhm. But yeah, still kind of like undecided
on as if I like that or not. Yeah. Like it's still it rolls faster and it's like nice on like flat stuff, but
Yeah. It's definitely still weird like if you get an error like cuz the the wheels and
tires are so light for the for the travel of the bike, you know? Yeah, I've thought about that a lot more lately,
especially since the ASR, just trying to match the right suspension, wheel and tire setup to the frame, because if you
have, you know, super lightweight wheel and tires, they're inevitably a bit just flexy feeling. And if that's paired with
a really sort of stiff, robust trail bike or duro bike, it just doesn't feel balanced. And then vice versa, if you
put too heavy and durable and stiff of wheels on a really light, slightly flexy cross country bike like the ASR, that
also kind of feels funky. Yeah. So, you're totally right. Kind of had that moment earlier today. It's definitely something to consider if
you're messing around with things like that. Yeah. It's like it's it's like a nice little like in a pinch if you just want
a faster rolling bike, right? Like, and you don't want to go buy a cross country bike. But I had a moment today where I was like, "Wow, I could feel the like I
kind of had a G out and I was like, I could feel that rear wheel like flex really bad." What's your ASR setup still like? Because didn't you have that?
Um you've been through several variations of light not light on the ASR. So currently it's still set up the way I
crashed it. Yeah. Um levers and all. You haven't even fixed it all. Like did Liam like modify his angle of
his levers? Like I just haven't touched it. Put on the shelf. Cartwheel it and put it up for the time
being. Um I mean I can't spin a wrench with a left hand. So yeah. Um, currently I have WTB
Peacekeepers on it with DTS Swiss like light lighter alloy wheels, but they're still like kind of trail wheels. Um, and
then I have a Pike 130 in the front and then Deluxe in the rear. Yeah, that's right. Motive brakes, 180 rotors, like HS2
center lines, and then like a 180 dropper. So, it is pretty like I don't know. I'd say on the trail side,
like down trail bikeish build kit XC light frame trail. show country. Um,
I knew that was going to trigger you. And, uh, it's really fun like that. Like, it's super capable.
I like that. But it's definitely on the limit of like what that frame wants to do. You can tell. Yeah. But I've done like everything I can to
make that frame as stiff as possible. Like I swapped out the link. I've went to an XL frame, shorter stem, like all the
types of things to make it feel just like a touch more than a XC bike
cuz that's how I like to ride it. Yeah. Yeah, but I still want it to be light and efficient. So, if they come out with another version of
that that is lighter and stiffer or even just either one, I'm I'll be a sucker
and I'll buy it right away. I mean, they already do have that. It's the ultimate version, but you need to have flight attendant.
You need to have at least electronic. It's only Yeah. Drive. It's a little bit lighter. It's no stiffer. Yeah. It's no stiffer.
All right. Well, yeah. It's what 130 or something grams light. Even just keep it the same way. Just make it slightly stiffer. But it's not
like it's flexy either, but it's just still could be stiffer. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah. But all all around for I mean again all
all these things are trade-offs and little things you're trying to balance and that bike in terms of how fast it is, how light it is, how capable it is,
how good it feels when you ride it. It's just it's fantastic bike, which is why I keep riding it and keep coming back to it.
Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. I've gone full XC, dude. Full XC.
This guy doesn't even own a trail bike. Never worn spandex and never will. What's the next? Nobody wore spandex on 100 miles. What's
the next, you know, longer travel bike? You sold your Banshee. I don't know. I mean, the that Rebel
Rascal looks rad. The Ritual looks rad. Some of those Forbiddens look really cool. For a bike that you'll travel with next
year. That's a good point cuz we're doing all those trips with all mountain rides. Tasmania. Yep.
Italy. Yep. Nepal. Yep. Come join us. All mountain rides strips next year. That's going to be rad.
Get $250 off by just telling Phil. That's right. About us Phil. That's right.
Like, yo, Phil, give me a discount. So, you'll have to build a bike for this. I love to build a bike. Well, unless you want to be severely
underbiked. I don't know. I'm not prepared for this question right now. I haven't thought about it. Off the cuff. Whatever your heart
Whatever your heart says. You know, I want to know what's coming out. I bet there's going to be some new stuff
coming out probably. Yeah, maybe not as early as April, but maybe the Tazzy trip's not till April. Yeah,
at least from some of our main brands in that category. There's nothing new coming out. Yeah. Yeah.
Well, you know what is new? That's a perfect segue into the Revel
custom. No, I'm reading that wrong. A concept. The titanium full suspension concept bike.
Yeah. The Revel bikes project Ratle. Ratle. Ratle.
Ratical. Rat. Radical. Start with an R. William, give us the
give us the dirty the down low on this thing. The dirty. Yeah. Um, essentially
it is a prototype titanium full suspension bike from Revelikes.
um kind of combining their roots of making titanium rigid
frames like the L Hefe and the R+ that we have all had ridden and had time on
and combining that with some full suspension knowledge that they have um to make a
tie frame. So, it's pretty sick. Tie full suspensions are definitely rare, especially in like more of a production
as well. Like you you always have the bespoke ones. It's an odd It's an odd boutique bike nerd bike.
You rarely see them. Yeah, definitely. Why is that? Um, it's just hard to get the stiffness
and weight and everything correct, right? And it has a definitely a different ride feel being all titanium
compared to alloy or carbon. Um, yeah, it's cool. It's kind of Adam kind of
conjured this up, I think, a little bit even before he bought Revel back. Oh.
So, it's kind of just something he was doing and then it, you know, bought Revel and came to
uh came to be. He worked with Chris Canfield to work on a modified CBF
uh platform which looks like a horse link but is actually still within CBF's
patent field. Um I don't know they have a lot of patents for that stuff but in a
way they work is weird but um yeah it's cool. Yeah, linkage does look very interesting. It's uh
the rocker like the all the 3D printed joints and
ends and brake mounts and head tube. They look so rad. You got to check this out. Uh if you haven't already, we have
a blog. Go to Rebel's site, wherever it might be. Yeah. Um we'll have a link in the description.
The the photos in the close-up look so cool. Yeah, it's uh Adam sent it to me like a month
ago and this thing looks so sick. Yeah, it does look rad. Yeah, I mean Rebel. So, just for those who might not
know that atom had Y cycles, Yeah. which was a Thai only brand and then
eventually just tucked it underneath the Rebel name. So, um they've got a years and years of experience making titanium
mountain bikes and they're just super good at it. Um so, this is cool to see. All albeit this is a weird off-the-wall
bike. Like, if if it really came down to it, you're going to you know, it's the same travel and probably close to the
same geo as the Rascal. Yep. It's you're going to buy the rascal logically, rationally, but also if you see this and
you just love Tai and you're a bike guy, then you're just like, "Oh, this is rad. This is way more this is way more unique."
Very unique. Yeah. It would be really cool if they ended up producing it or even even in small numbers, right?
Yeah. It's it's raw frame, which I don't know is pretty cool. Like I mean, I love traveling with a raw frame last year.
Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. Yeah. Sick. Yeah. It's It's rad. and some something
new and cool. Hopefully, it gets a great response and maybe finds itself in a production
slot in the near future. That would be cool. Currently, it's just slated as a prototype. He wants to make some tweaks
to it and create another one. So, very cool. Yeah. Well, speaking of Revel and Colorado,
that is like nearly a perfect segue to talk about the Rocky Mountain Oyster
Challenge that you and your segways, man. Yeah, you're just always looking for them.
Tell the guy he's a podcast host and he just looks for the Segways.
That was the most insane treasure hunt yet. That was Yeah. So, I I talked about the
whole addition three of the Kettle Mountain treasure hunt, which I called the Rocky Mountain Oyster Challenge. Um
I don't know, a handful of episodes back. What are you laughing? Rocky Mountain challenge. It is funny. It is funny.
Um and uh so so it was way more complicated than the past ones. There
was it was a elimination format. There was levels to it. So there was basically 10 jars all over the front range of the
mountains that contained the coordinates to five jars which took you further west and then the three jars then to one jar
and you got increasing amounts of money and gift cards each level you went through. Um, and so, so it was also
different because we told people about it, right? Talked about on the podcast. We told we sent out an email list to the Kettle
email list, put on this kettle social and said like, "Hey, this is happening." Whereas the ones in the past, we just said it's released and it was it just
really required spontaneity. Whereas this one people could plan for it. And yeah, it it definitely uh blew my
expectations out of the water. I mean, I just I thought the idea was fun and sounds like something I would love to do. So, I was like, "Oh, let's just try
it." And people just apparently love this shenanigans. Um, and this one especially got people really competitive
because it was sort of a race situation and uh there was uh
dozens of people simultaneously going for those. I mean I by my count so also
I'm I'm sitting there I'm I told everyone I'm going to post the coordinates at 8:00 a.m. Mountain time. So I'm sitting there at you know 6:57
a.m. just doing my double checks QCing and then I'm running late and I'm like getting really nervous. I'm like, "Oh, I got to I really need to QC these before
I post them." And then the the cat text message line is just blowing up like, "Where are the coordinates? Where are
the coordinates?" I hold on. I was panicking. Saturday morning just sweating, sweating trying
to get the thing and this and the site traffic is just spiking, spiking, spiking. I'm like, "Oh my god, dude."
So, I get the things posted like 4 minutes late. All these people like losing their minds off me.
Um they're just sitting there like trail heads. They think they'll be nearby and just refreshing the page.
That's amazing. Um so yeah, so anyways, people just go charging for these things. Uh they
basically all disappeared as fast as you could physically possibly get them from the trail head. So within an hour and 10
minutes, every single one of the 10 level one jars on the front range was found. Hour and 10 minutes. Hour and 10 minutes. Wow. And then
people were now, you know, in the hunt for the level two ones, which took you way further in. And uh and there was a
bunch of people that obviously just didn't get one. There was only 10 and they just weren't fast enough. They
weren't fast enough. They weren't close enough to the trail heads. Some people just guessed trail heads that were really close or the correct ones based
on the sort of broad map that we'd put out. Um so it really did become this this crazy off-the-wall weird
competition. Um, and there there was even a couple guys uh which we talked about before who who both had gotten one
one of them got the jar in uh Lake Tahoe that was underwater in the last treasure hunt. The other one got the one that was way out in the Black Rock Desert.
Um, these two guys from they're from Reno and they flew out to Colorado to do this. Wow.
And they didn't get no way. I felt so I was rooting for these guys. These guys are so cool. And I I just
felt so bad. I was like a oh my god. I guess he he had written that they were they were basically in
the vicinity, you know, running with people side by side and then everyone's
like hooting and hollering and having fun and and they're in the bushes rum like dozens of guys. Oh, so they're all there.
They're all there like simultaneously rumaging through bushes, lifting up rocks, like trying to find cuz the
coordinates are accurate, you know, 10 10ish feet, 20ish feet and then all a sudden one guy's like, "Got it." And by the time that person
had got it, they're like, "Oh, we'll go to the next one further north." Gone. Like, it's over. Yeah. And, "Oh my god, look at what you've
done. This way out of hand." You know, luckily, no reports of any bad foul play by any means. Um,
no way, dude. Albeit, we we did think that this could happen. We just didn't think it would
happen. We thought the way you could really do this is to do a team a team effort, you know, treat this like an
adventure race. Treat this, you know, like a team. And sure enough, group of mountain bike dudes that call themselves
the mountain trolls from from Colorado Springs. Fitting name. Yeah. No way. They did. They planned it out. They used
their chat group. They had multiple cars, multiple people. They got two level one jars. One guy, they they got
one jar. Another guy was driving and they leaprogged it. A guy was another guy who's like in a command station was
screenshotting what the rocks would look like for that jar and giving them what where they I mean
these guys treated it like I was going to say like like you almost need a commander to be like all right here's here's the coordinates you know
here's they basically had that yeah here's here's the it was like eight guys but some of them were sort of from what I understand were
like command stationing it and and directing and the other guys were at the end of the day they probably got
what,000 bucks altogether 1,100 well I I think it was more, right? So, it was So, the winner the winner would
get $1,100 in cash and $1,100 in gift card, but So, I think maybe they got ended up getting $1,200 cuz I think they got two
level one jars. Yeah. Um I mean, it is very much possible that they do have some sort of military
background cuz there's a huge military contingent in Colorado Springs. Yeah, you're right. That's a good point. I should have asked. They could be like,
"All right, go over." I asked I was, you know, cuz I I I I
knew what was happening once one guy sent in that he got a level three jar after he sent in prior he got a level
one jar. And I was like, "Oh, these guys are working together." Yeah. Um and I said like, "Hey, that's there's
no rules. This is fair play." I didn't I mean I mean all you went you went over all of this with all of us and we all
had like, "Okay, well, you could cheat this way. You could cheat this way." And you're like, "Well, we'll see if it's not cheating.
strategy, right? Like we'll see if people do. I just think people would take it so serious. That's amazing. So anyways, these these guys cleaned up.
Um and yeah, obviously some people were a little grumpy that were on the north end that started in the Boulder and
Denver area cuz the they were so far ahead. I mean, they were they were probably three at three and a half four
hours ahead of anyone else cuz there were other just individuals or just groups of two together that were
plucking off the other ones. Um but they they had just finished getting the basically the level three jar and these
guys had already got the final jar. So they were like 3 or 4 hours in the lead. Wow. Um they smoked it.
Yeah. Oh my god. I know. And and I and I asked and the guy gave me this big long text and broke down the whole strategy and what they
did and I was like you guys really took this hobby.
Yeah. It was so you're looking at it. started start a uh private
company of some sort to track people and things. You make some real money. It was so funny. That's phenomenal. I can't believe how
many When I was watching it the morning of and I went so fast, I was like, I wonder
if Jeff's going to give less notice on the next one. Mhm. You know.
Yeah. Cuz that that's definitely like maybe a two or three day notice, right? Cuz this people had like a month to plan to put plane tickets and
take the weekend off. Hey, I can't do anything with the kids this weekend, honey. Like, I'm hunting for treasure.
Yeah, it was it was crazy how many people were interested in it. And uh yeah, and and the way it was broken out
was some of them very much so made sense to ride mountain bikes to, and they were bikable trails and sort of known
mountain bike trails, and other ones made a ton of sense to hike or run to, and they were hike only trails. Some of them you basically just had to cuz they
were super steep and rocky and you couldn't ride a bike on. So it it it didn't it didn't favor, you know,
mountain bike or foot. Like you had to do both no matter what. Even the ones that were off- mountain bike trails that
you could ride a mountain bike close to, you still had to go from where the mountain bike trail ended off trail at
least a quarter or half mile on foot. So um and some of them you had to 4x4 to
some of them you could if you took a 4x4 you could get closer access before you got on foot or on the bike. So u there
was a lot to it and yeah these these guys just smoked it. But unreal. So there was 19 jars out there in total
between all of them. Um 7 hours they were all gone. That's insane.
Yeah. And it this this took me painstakingly 4 days to put them all out. I single-handedly put all 19 of
them out. And it and it literally took me 5 to 6 hours of driving per day for 4 days in a row and 8 to 10 hours of
activity per day for 4 days in a row. Unreal. So, I was I was basically full gas all day, 4 days in a row, as fast as
I possibly could, just putting all these things out cuz and I I planned this out just kind of half-hazardly and I was
like, "Yeah, I could put these all out in 4 days." And then I I as I'm getting closer to that trip, I'm like, "Oh, this is this is going to be tight. This is
going to be really hard." And you had somewhere to be right after. So, you got out of And I was supposed to I basically was supposed to fly on Monday to go visit
the PA shop and then do the 100 mile ride the weekend after. So, I was like, "Man, this is going to be really tight." And I did four jars the first day and it
took me 16 hours. And I was thought, "Oh boy, this is going to be a full-blown adventure stage race." And so
then I just proceeded to do that again and again and again for three days in a row. And I set the last jar in the
pouring rain in Boulder at 9:30 p.m. on Sunday.
And then I flew out. It was so funny, man. Unbelievable. I was like there and there
were some people for whatever weird reason coming down some insanely steep uh rocky trail on the flat irons in
Boulder that were coming down at that time and just looking at me like what are you doing? Why are you going up
Yeah. at pouring it's pissing rain and I'm wearing a our new rain shell. Um and
just hiking up and they're just like are you what? They didn't know what to say to me. They thought I was a
serial killer screw loose or something. Yeah. I was like, "No, I'm I'm hiding treasure jars."
Looking for your next victim. Yeah. Oh my gosh. So, anyways, it was a good time. I I don't know what I'm going to do for the
next one. Um, people obviously loved the competition format, but people just think this is
fun. Anyway, and and to me, the amount of people that truly had fun and got to go outside and also said they felt like
a kid again is like, that's the whole point. The whole reason I'm doing this thing, I just think it's fun. Um, it's
like, could could how can you make marketing your outdoor apparel brand as fun as absolute possible? And I was
like, God, this is an answer. Um, so I don't know. I'm thinking Phoenix next, greater Phoenix area, maybe doing a
winter. Yeah, cuz Phoenix is beautiful in the winter, right? So, um, it'd be cool to
go out there and maybe do easy, medium, hard, like 20 jars, easy, 20 jars medium, 10 jars hard, something like
that. because then then the hard jars with more money, the hard cores would just go straight there and it would
there'd be more people that could succeed and then different skill levels could succeed. Um, and it wouldn't just cater to these it wouldn't cater to
Colorado Springs Team 6, aka Mountain Trolls.
So, I don't know what to do next, but that that was a good one. It was good fun. Amazing. Yeah. Seriously, when I was
watching the updates on the kettle Instagram, I was just like, "What?"
It and it made it made me look like a dork because it's like, "Oh, I thought you said it was hard to put all those things out there." Like, it was hard.
Okay. By myself. There was like dozens of people going at full race pace picking these things up.
Yeah. You're going to need like a month in Phoenix. I know. Yeah. I probably would. Yeah. Now, now I realize how hard it is to go
and hide all these things. It's just like it's really timeconuming. Yeah, you you have to bring a seal team six out there and be like, "All right, we're
breaking this into four people, some employees, delegate some jars." Totally. All right, you guys go get
these jars. We'll get these jars today. We'll, you know. Yeah. And I mean, people love it. So, I mean, so many people too offered like, "Hey,
if you ever do it again, I'm I'm more than happy to help out, hide these things." I'm like, "That's awesome." Like, people just think this is a fun
activity. Yeah, it is fun. So, it was great. I I had the one jar in New Zealand and helped you with a one in the same caves
and for special edition down under. Yeah. Yeah. When I was coming out of this creek bed, I was walking down it. My
bike hidden over a log, right? And I'm like hiking up this creek and some guy I'm on the back country trail. Some guy
on a bike rolls right by. What are you doing over there? Is there a trail over there? Yeah. I was like I was like, "Oh, I was just taking a break."
Secret lumber, dude. It's a secret lumber. Like hiking my bike down a waterfall.
Oh my gosh. Yeah. Unreal. So good. Anyways, uh yeah, good good times the
treasure hunt. That's that's been a super fun project and we'll see. And there's so many different ways I could take it. And I don't think I'm just
gonna I'm not going to keep it the same. I'm just gonna keep doing different crap every time just just for whatever seems fun as you should.
So yeah, but yeah, I'm I'm kind of optimistic on the sort of greater Phoenix area in the winter cuz it's just
I love being out there in the winter. And um a lot of people said, "Oh, this would be amazing to do in the winter time." Like it would, but it' be way
more dangerous and and just hard to like you're digging through snow and then Yeah. like potential avalanches from
digging or Yeah. It's just way it's so much more riskable. What's it called? Freeze thaw. All that stuff going out there. And yeah, you
might it might be good one week, it's bad the next week, too. I think one of Dom's friends had an idea of those uh those recon beacons um to
use those in the snow like to see when you found it. Yeah. I was like, that sounds awesome, but still it's just winter the wintertime
ones in the snow too too risky. We'll keep it to the southwest in the winter and get back in the high alpine in the
in the summertime. Yeah, sounds like a good idea. Mhm. Uh, well, what do you boys say we
take a quick break and we bounce back with some listener questions? Beautious. Yes, sir. Wonderful. And now, a word from our
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saddle squirm thanks to Sham Jam, now available in Fruit Punch. And now back
to the show. Listener questions. Crank it up. Crank it up. Hey podcast guys, if you
were a fish, what would be the best bait to catch you? not necessarily an actual bait for normal fish. Also, what are
your future plans for Trail One and Kettle Products? Thank you guys for all the informative content. I have learned so much from you.
It's a nice interesting twist on that question there. Yeah. What would catch you, Jeff?
Good, good looking woman. Yeah, that was going to be mine. I was trying to think of a way to say classic straight male PG-13 way.
I don't know what else to say. Yeah, I'd go fried chicken salad. T say
some sushi platter. Yeah. Fish to catch the fish. Yeah.
Yeah. I'm a carnivore. That sounds pretty good. Fish to catch fish. Um I didn't think about I didn't think
about the the beautiful woman. I'm married, but uh I am married and I
initially I thought like a delicious burger and a beer. Yeah. I would catch me that would catch me
easily. See, I was I was I was thinking uh a woman first or like a dream car,
you know. Yeah. Well, that's how they catch people actually in $100,000, you know, Land Cruiser. So,
in Brazil, you know, they send a pretty woman in to lure you and then they they
drug you and then they steal all your money. They do that in a ton of countries. That's probably happens in LA.
Yeah, it does. Little Wayne has a song. Maybe I'm thinking of like uh I don't
know, Guatemala or something. I don't know. Colia, I think is Yeah, I know. Colia some Instagram reels about
the Andre Andre have told me about that. It happened to him in in Columbia.
Really? Wow. Yeah. Come meet girl in the club and then all of a sudden you wake up in an alley with your Lil Wayne has a song about that. It's
definitely not PG-13. The song. Yeah. Yeah, but it's called Mona Lisa, and it's about a girl going home with a guy and
then uh pulling in her crew to come in and rob the place. Jeez. Yeah.
Wow. Well, if you want to hear about dark things like that, this isn't the podcast. Here we keep it light and talk
about mountain bikes. That's right. Speaking of which, uh future show one and kettle products. We
just dropped a bunch of sick kettle products. Yeah, there there is a bunch of new kettle stuff. A lot of winter related
things. much more robust uh storm shell, which is just basically a hard shell for snow
sports and and the like. Um alpine pants, mountain bike pants, which would be relevant cuz a lot of people have
been asking for those. So, the mountain bike pants, I just spent a lot of money on kettle. Yeah. Yeah. Everyone that's seen that stuff
has tried it all on and just going, "Wow, I got to get all this new stuff." So, some base layers, some Marino stuff, marino hoodie, um yeah, a bunch of
stuff. I don't even know off the top of my head. I'm not positive if the Marino stuff's live as of today, but I think it will.
At least the hood is Marino grid hoodie. Yeah. New. I got the Midway Puffinator. I got the mountain bike pants. I got the
jogger. I got more boxers. Wow. Yeah. Boxers are boxers.
I use them for running only. Yeah. Yeah, dude. Those those boxer briefs, they are nice. If I'm going to wear
them, that's what I'm going to wear. Sold out so fast. Yeah. I only got one pair and that's why I had to order more now because they're
gone for like months. My favorite boxers briefs. Boxer briefs. Yeah, it was kind of funny. I mean, we took it took three years to make those.
All all this stuff that just came out was stuff that we we didn't have any urgent need to get out anytime sooner.
It was like, hey, we want to make a really nice high-end winter related things and a few other pieces and we just took a really long time on the
development cycle. Those boxer briefs included and those just have that really unique feature of the sort of anti-slip
grip stuff that's on the bottom of them. And people just there was so many orders where people bought one pair and then
two weeks later buy five pairs. Yeah. Um, and it's just hilarious how that happens with that's what men do. They're
just like, I like these. I'm buying the rest. Yeah, I do it all the time. It's a classic dude thing to do with
these shirts ever. Yeah. Just make these for the rest of my life. It's so gratifying though as as one of
the people who helps design all that stuff because you put so much effort into it. And there is no better
compliment to the fact that you made a good product than seeing somebody buy one and then two weeks later buy five. It's like that is when you know you
actually made a really good piece of apparel. It is. So, what about uh trail one? Anything in the
pipeline? We just dropped the shed rim and shed wheel set. That's right. So, the last podcast we jumped the gun
like a day and people were all over me trying to get those. Um so, they are live. They're up. We've
sold a bunch. Um made in USA rim. Made in the USA rim. Talked all about it last time.
So, that's been great. Um, other products, there's a few other touch points we're working on. Um, we're also
just going to kind of work on like dialing in the line a bit more. Um, kind of go for like a a great greatest
product line kind of format moving forward. Yeah, I think what we we were theorizing is it would it would be kind of cool to
have the Trail One product line where you have sort of your really important staples, bars, bars, grips, saddles,
stems, whatever. So in every one of these categories, you have the uh
basically your your workhorse, your incredible value. So something that is an uh very approachable price point and
it just blows all the competition out of the water when it comes to specs, weight, aesthetics, everything else like that for its price point. And then so
that that's the core sort of foundation of all the products. And then you have one other level which is an ultra
premium obscenely high-end tier which is you know for the dentists, for the bike nerds, for the people who care to spend
the utmost amount of money on their bicycle componentry. So I think we're going to slowly evolve the product line
like that. Um yeah, and continue to add a few other things that we think we can add value to and would be a good product
to basically use that ideology with. Nice. So pretty fun. Yeah. More colors as well and all that
good stuff. So, if anyone ever has any ideas, feel free to message us. We're small business making nice stuff and
always open to feedback if people think there's something that we could make. Continue to donate to trails throughout
the year. That's right. Yeah, that's the other thing. I mean, the foundation of all that is to just have really good products that support
the sport of mountain biking and so far so good on that front, which is cool. Yeah, that's what it's all about.
Definitely try to, you know, put all that stuff to use in 2026. So, nice. Love to hear that. Sweet.
One of you guys want to read the next question, Jeff? Surely. Hi guys, one of your female
listeners here. You helped me a lot with my XC suspension question, so I'd love to pick your brain about trail/all
bikikes. I live in Northern New Jersey. I have my XC bike that I ride most of the time, but I sometimes want to go
ride tech trails at Mountain Creek or hit some jankier jankier jankier trails
that my XC bike wouldn't do well on. I'd also like to have a bike I can do MTB trips with without the anxiety of will
it be in one piece when I get there. So, I'm now looking at getting a longer travel bike. 140 to 150 rear, 150 to 160
front. For the days I want to uh for the days I want more plush or to go far a
field. Uh I also really don't want to have to do any battery charging. So, no
ebike priorities. Well, we would assume you didn't mean mini bike unless you specified.
Priorities are durability, cable ports, and a good mix of pedaling platform and downhill capability. Besides something
like an alloy stumpy 15 or new Trek Fuel EXLX, what should I be looking for? Thanks, Allison.
You know what bike I had in mind was the Beni Titan.
Even though that's not was a 155, but it's durable. I think they're actually on sale right now. What's the
other Banshee that's slightly less travel? Prime. I think that's what 135 travel. I think it's closer to what she was saying. 140
15 rear. But the Titan, I mean, you can attest to how well it pedals. Yeah. I really like that bike.
If you're going to go ride Mountain Creek or some Jank, like you might as well just get a little more cushion for the cushion. Yeah. Yeah. The other one that I thought
of was Forbidden Druid. Yeah. Technically, it's 130 rear, but I think it rides more like a 140.
The high pivot will be great on the Jank. Mhm. Uh cable ports are good. They're quiet. It's uh reliable.
Um yeah, she didn't specify carbon alloy, but just said durability is one of the main priorities and traveling with it,
which kind of led me to thinking alloy just true. You have a lot less anxiety traveling with an alloy bike, you know, when you
hand it over to United Airlines and watching it thrown on thrown
watching your baby get thrown out of the seat. It's like, oh, having an alloy bike makes you feel a
lot better, especially a raw one. Yeah. Um, yeah, but man, if if there's any awesome, rare, small, booty, cool brand that
makes alloy bikes, it's Banshee. That's for sure. Those are cool bike. I would love to have a Banshee Titan at some point.
Yeah, I mean, obviously there's there's plenty of options from Specializing Trek, like she had mentioned, Stumpy 15
or one of the Trek Fuel EX or LX. Um, you know, obviously when you're talking to us us podcast guys, as some people
call us, uh, we're we're much more fans of smaller boutique rare brands than the
big incumbents. Yeah. But yeah, good good bikes all over the place. So, welcome to decision paralysis
of buying a bike. Agreed. Yeah, I mean, just try to ride them.
Yeah. Try to see what checks most of your boxes and then go ride those if you can. Yeah. Yeah, that is a nice thing to just
see if you can ride something before you decide on it. Mhm. Agreed. Yeah. Liam, you want to read that next one?
Love to, Jared. Again, called on in class. Longtime customer and listener here.
It's great that you folks can chew through bikes like potato chips and give us all updates on the new emerging stuff, but it's also very valuable to
hear the rest of the story for us groundbound folks who stick to our investments and improve them
thoughtfully and incrementally. To that end, can we get a review of Jeff's hopefully wellused Elfe including in
innovative bird with spokes and wheels, lightweight tires, envy fork, and the whole thing. What worked well? What is
it best at? Any advice for someone thinking of building something similar? Is he going to keep it or turn it over
as usual? After a year, how does it compare to a straight bar cutthroat he exchanged it for? Inquiring minds would
like to know. Cheers and thanks, John. This guy knows your stuff, Jeff. He must have watched your video that you
made about that weird bike. I forgot that I made that video. You made that video. Was that on the Hefe or the cutthroat?
It was on the It was on the HF. But you still had the I think I talked about the the Hefe
the cutthroat in there, but I still had the MV4 guy when I made that video. Yeah, the title that was just this is a weird bike, but I love it.
Um cuz it was. So yeah. So anyways, I think during the co years, I got pretty bored um like
everyone did to some extent or another and uh got a Salsa Cutthroat, which they
call a drop bar mountain bike. And then I was I'm not riding drop bars, so I put flat bars on it. So it was basically a
rigid carbon uh mountain bike. So it had flat bars on it, dropper post, and what
did I have on first on there? Like a 42C tire 45 Pirelli on there.
So it was a pretty small. So that thing was just crazy. It was just a crazy lightweight, fast, rigid mountain bike
that I kind of called a gravel bike and it was just a really fun, fast, efficient bike to do things with that I liked.
It was more of like a gravel bike than an I mean, well, it's it's really I called it I I recorded my Garmin
activities as gravel bike. Yeah, it was a flat bar gravel bike. The way you kind cuz your tire you never really
had a huge tire like you put two two Race Kings on it, did you? Yeah. Yeah. The last little while I had
2.2 two tires on it which made it a little bit more mountain bikey. But you're right, when it had those other tires on there, they were that thing was
more of a gravel bike. Yeah. Um anyways, that thing was a ton of fun. I eventually sold it and got a Revel
LFA, which is a titanium hard tail mountain bike designed for a 120 fork, right? Yeah. Mhm.
Um and I put an Envy Rigid carbon fork on it and Bird wheels, which Bird makes
the carbon rims and the crazy spokes. Um, and yeah, that was also super fun
and I really enjoyed it. And then at some point I decided to put a suspension fork on it. I don't know why. Maybe it
was cuz you just gave me so much flat. No, I think you came back from a ride and your like your neck was sore from
your neck. It was like I was doing these long rides on those rigid bikes and then my neck was just I was just starting to fall apart.
I think your neck was like it's hard to ride a rigid bike. Yeah. Your neck or back was hurt from just like training and other sort and
you're like I can't ride this bike right now. Order me a fork. Yeah. Yeah. You put like a 110 mil fork, right? Or
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Put a SID SL on it. Sid. Yep. Um and I still have it. Um I
really like that bike. I mean, it's a ton of fun. I think literally all three of us have had LFAS, right, at one point or another. True.
Um it's just an awesome fun titanium hard tail, just genuine mountain bike.
Um and uh I still ride it here and there. I ended up leaving it in Nevada
because I like riding it there and I have a loop that I do there that's just kind of a more mellow XC route with some
with some road in it, too. Um, so yeah, I love that bike. I did end up putting a fork on it. I I will say that um what I
just turned 36 a month ago and uh rigid bikes and even hard tails, they're hard,
dude. This hard on the body. They're rough on you. Um and I I just put in a lot of volume, too. I just I
run a lot. I hike a lot. I ride a lot. Um, especially if I'm training for something or doing an adventure race. And so it it just kind of beats you up
and it's and it's really nice to ride a full suspension XC bike. So the the hard
tail is not something I'm going to ride all the time. But I literally still love that bike. And I think the bird wheels
make a ton of sense on a hard tail just cuz they're supple and feel really good and they're crazy lightweight.
Um, and they pair really well with titanium frame. So yeah, I'm I have no
plans on selling that thing anytime soon. It's a super fun bike. So I pretty much have the same bike, but it's not Rebel Alfefe. It's a Stinner
Custom St. But spec almost identical. That's a Tai Rail, too, right? Yeah.
Yeah. Same fork, you know, basically same brakes like Yeah. I love having 2.6 tires on that bike.
Yeah, that that's funny that you did that cuz um that that was a different it's a different way to ride a hard
tail, but it's still the same. Yeah, it's like 20 PSI like people who ride hard tails religiously
for ever and long times, they usually all have 2.6 tires. Well, it's because the volume helps so
much with the ride quality. It almost makes it a full suspension bike. It's like adding 20 mil suspension over 24. So, yeah, for sure. So maybe maybe you'll go
and put some big fat balloons on your LFA at some point, but you probably
won't. Yeah, probably not. I I realized too cuz I did that one ride with with uh a
couple buddies and they were on full suspension bikes and we were riding these long flat sections of fire road
that had embedded rocks. And if you ride that stuff slow, it's
it's no on a hard it's kind of no big deal. But when you're trying to ride that particular thing fast on a hard
tail, you end up having to pedal a lot over stuff that just bucks you. Yeah.
And it just stops your pedaling. Yeah. It just ends up being annoying and it's like hard to
do that. Whereas a full suspension bike, you can just continue to put the power down and your body stays stable and
smooth. And um yeah, that that's when I really realized like, wow, this is actually kind of kind of limiting and
cumbersome to try and ride a hard tail like that, which again, if you're not riding with friends who are fast and
trying to go fast and riding on that exact terrain, it's no big deal. But that was one of the things I noticed. I
was like, "Ah, this is just this this is hard on the body to try and pedal on flat fire roads on a hard tail with a bunch
of impacted rocks." Yeah. I mean, that's why my last second last year race next year I was on a hard
tail and then it was same thing. I was like, dude, I can't pedal through this terrain. Like, you know, I literally
cannot pedal through it. So, I'm like got full suspension. So, yeah. Like bucks you off like a you like
a mechanical bull. Yep. Um, it's crazy. Well, how about this
next one? Hi guys, love the podcast. Tra from Adelaide here. Currently riding a Norcco optic C2 2022 23 not high pivot
125 140 mil and it's great for the Adelaide trails mainly blues I've taken it to derby once and I felt like I was a
bit underbiked we are moving to Listen in January so Georgetown Travalon and Derby will be my new backyard it's going
to be tough I know do you guys after being there have any thoughts on what would be a good option I will still most
likely stick to the blues I'm 46 and need to go to work on Mondays love what you guys do and thanks in advance Trav.
Well, um I we we all kind of decided like what a 140 150 bike
Yeah. was pretty ideal there. Mhm. Um SP140
SP40 Stump Jumper Stump Jumper. Something along those lines. Yeah. Be sweet.
Except for some of those super techy trails, which he's probably like he's saying, he's probably going to stick to the Yeah, those are blacks or double blacks.
The blacks, double blacks. Uh, I was thankful to have the extra travel, but yeah, a lot of those blues, like kind of
mid-travel trail bike was perfect. Um, yeah, I think most of us were, you know, quote unquote overbiked for I'd say 80
or 90% of the trails we rode in derby. Yeah. Yeah. Um,
yeah. I mean, like you said, SP140, Stumpy, that Banshee Prime Druid could
be good. I mean, unless you're like gonna ride, if you're gonna ride the tech stuff, Druid would be legit. Um, I don't know. What do you think,
Jeff? What else would you What else would be good? Uh, I just aded out looking at photos of Adelaide and where it was on a map, and
it just looks like one of those incredible Australian cities that I wish I was from and lived.
It has a cool name. Um, it does. Yeah, it is beautiful. It does look
Adelaide's like a little bit further south west than west of where we were. Yeah.
Yeah. That's cool. Um it looks rad. You talking about riding in Tazzy?
Tazzy. He's moving to Tazzy. Tazzy going to be He's I told you I spaced out. I was looking
at photos of Adelaide. I was like that's in Australia, right? Where? Um Adelaide, right?
Oh, it's in a separate city. What's so what's so cool about Tazzy is that the I mean, yeah, probably a 140 bike is
incredible there, but there's the trails are so wellmaintained that you can ride
these incredibly fun, flowy, awesome blues on your 140 bike all day and you never feel underbiked.
No. Um, which I just think is cool. And if you did want to ride some, you know, EWSworthy, insane, gnarly, techy
shenanigans, that's just clearly marked and it's also there. Yeah, it's it's just so purpose-built for
mountain biking. It's incredible. So cool. So, yeah. I don't know. And in that 140 bike category, a lot of
options. There's a lot of options. A lot of good options. There's a ton of options. I think we named a few earlier too on
that last question. Yeah. I mean, a Bronson would actually probably be pretty cool. We all know we don't sell those obviously, but um
or a high tower. Or a high tower. Yeah. Or Yeah. Like a mullet. Um cuz isn't high tower 2929? I feel like I feel like
probably Bronson would probably be a pretty fun bike there. Yeah, I mean try and try try and ride some if you can. I mean,
realistically, you demo one and derby. Yeah, demo one, the secondhand bike market is still just incredible right
now. There's just a million people and their brother who all bought really nice bikes during the peak co years that are
selling them for onethird the price. It's true. Um, so that if that's if that's the
route you want to go, sweet. Otherwise, you know, a local shop that's going to service it for you might be valuable.
Um, which there is some cool shops and Tazzy too that we stumbled upon as well. So, totally.
Um, yeah. I'm jealous. Listen seems like a very cool city. Yeah, it does. Yeah, we walked around
there for a little bit. We did. Went down to the waterfront. Mhm. You guys got those smoothies. Yeah. We went to that popping coffee
shop. Yeah, that was that was a good coffee shop. Yeah. What a cool place. Yeah. What a cool place. Cool.
Maybe he can come ride with us. There you go. April when we go there with all mountain rides.
Yeah, that'd be pretty sweet. There you go. Well, how about this next question?
Liam, you you could ask one here. Uh, this one right here. Yeah.
Mhm. All right, Jens. First off, love the pod. Last episode, Liam mentioned
that mountain bike cranks generally don't have Q factors, but road cranks do. What's Liam's taste on the new
Wolftoothoth pedals that have adjustable Q factor. Is anyone at the shop going to give them a test for long-term review? Heal up quick, Liam. Cheers, Austin. Um,
yeah, they look really good. Uh, the new Wolftoothoth pedals look rad. No one
here has them yet. Uh, Wolftoothoth, if you want to send a few. I know Tidman
was already asking me about them and wanted to uses SPD. Yeah, a lot of people don't. U brothers and I use time. I've been on
time for like 4 years. Rock, have you been under Manny's? Time has I thought time had SPD cleats.
No, the time has their own very unique pattern. Guess you could say the time has come. Yep. Um Trevor Trevor uses SPDs, but
there you go. Trevor does. He runs his XT. A lot of their their pedals look like they're definitely on the gravel XC and
light trail side. Yeah. They're not really enduro pedals. None of them have a actual platform, too. No, they're they're one that's called
Trail is like an XC plus. It' be a great downcountry pedal. Yeah. Yeah. Um, no, they look excellent.
Everything Wolftoothoth makes essentially is is great. I can't think of a single product that's like not a
good product from Wolf Tooth. Everything's repairable. They try to try to manufacture as much as they can in
the USA. I don't know if these pedals are 100%, but most of their stuff is as USA made as
possible. Um, you got to appreciate that. Yeah, they're they're doing it right. And lots of colors and options on the
pedals. So, I mean, I think the reason they did go with that whole adjustable Q factor thing is because they are much more XC and gravel pedals where Q factor
is much more paid attention to whereas in Trail and Enduro, nobody really cares. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Um, but yeah, they they look excellent. I have not tried them, but uh I think Tideman's going to get a pair
whether Wolftooth sends us one when he buys a set. I guess one thing that might be useful to say though is why do you
think you know dialing in and having adjustability in your Q factor is so much more important in road gravel and
XC than it is in Trail/ Enduro. I just think you're doing more pedaling. So like your hip spacing Yeah. your feet
under your hips, how the displacement of that is. You have wide hips, narrow hips, you know, people's different, you
know, orientation of their feet and all that. And Tidman's also working on fitting people and learning all that
stuff. So, it's stuff he wants to dial in and learn about as well himself. So, yeah.
Um, when you're doing, I'd say majority of serious pedaling, you start to pay
attention to stuff like Q factor where your cleats are at on your shoes, you know, back and forth. When you're a
little bit more on like the trail enduro side, you're kind of just getting to the top of the mountain. A lot of people are on flat pedals anyways. Um, where the
stuff doesn't even matter. Um, and then you're focused on the down. So, yeah. And you're also in and out of the
saddle. so much more, which I think is a huge difference, right? So, the the longer and the more hours you're
spending seated pedaling, the more imperative it is to have your fit just dialed.
Q factor, saddle height, all of that stuff has to be so dialed in. Otherwise, your body just gets all messed up. Yeah.
And or you're just not efficient on the bike at pedaling it either. But when you talk about trail and enduro, you're sitting and standing
constantly. And you're also less concerned about optimizing for pedal efficiency and more concerned about
optimizing for downhill handling. So, exactly becomes very different in terms of what you're, you know, basically trying to
optimize around. Um, but it is cool that Wolftoothoth did that. But yeah, not really necessary on a more trail enduro
pedaler setup, but is is a really cool feature to have for something that's a little bit more gravel XC focused pedal.
And on my my trail bikes, I I just run a standard Q factor and I don't worry about it. like it's pretty wide and it
is what it is. Yeah. There there was a point in time that Ceram made XX1 carbon cranks that
had that they sold in two different key factors. The pro the problem is so many mountain
bikes, especially trail and enduro bikes, the chain stays are so bulky that you don't have a choice. Like if you
wanted a more narrow Q factor, you couldn't get it because it literally won't fit your frame. a weird time as well where 1x11 came out, 1x12 was just
coming out. I think those were 1x11 X1 cranks. I think they were. Um,
and then that was also the time where everything was boost, non-boost. Yeah. And so you had all these crazy standards
uh mix matching bottom brackets and spacing and like you're saying like cranks were hitting
chain stays of bikes that shouldn't be hitting chain stays on, but they are hitting. People wanted a narrow Q factor
and then they got a mountain bike that had boost rear spacing and it just doesn't work. And or X brand made cranks that were great
two years ago and now they're not great and they didn't even worry about the Q factor. They just made them cuz they worked on a non-boost frame.
Mhm. Yeah. So yeah, it's not really something you see anymore. But yeah, adjust for the best. It's kind
of coming uh Yeah, it's kind of coming more in like the pedal adjustment range now. Yeah. Yeah.
Which I think makes more sense. Like I think time on the road. I'm not sure about the mountain, but on the road I
think they have three Q factor spindle options you can choose from. Wow. Mhm. So you can dial that in with one
crank set. You can go short, normal, or wide. Yeah. See, I'm probably in the in the same camp as like most mountain bikers where
like I don't even know what key factor I should have. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I mean, it doesn't I actually I actually don't know trail
enduro mountain biker just doesn't matter. Yeah. Right. Like I don't know what numbers they are. It's like oh I have X, Y, and Z Q
factor. I don't know that. I just know I like the dub non nonwide. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Which like I don't even know. I don't even know which if I could tell you the difference if I had two different key factors on
two different bikes. Like maybe I don't know. You'd notice more if you sat and seated
pedaling for hours on end. Like you said like on a road bike. You spent seven hours on a bike in two
days and you went to go ride the next bike at a way wider Q factor. You notice it for the first 30-ish minutes of riding and you get used to it.
Yeah. But yeah. Yeah, makes sense. Adapt, overcome, improvise, improvise, adapt, overcome.
That's right. On that note, on that note, improvise out of here. Yep. I like that, Liam. Nice. Yeah. Thank you
everybody so much for tuning in. We truly do appreciate it. Um, and we do
have a discount code that we have been giving out at the end of the podcast, and that code is MTB Podcast 10. And an
insider tip given that it's October 21st. I said there's obviously going to be a bunch of sales going on in
November. So yes, that's true. Stay tuned. That's true. Yeah, stay tuned. The insider insider tip is that quite a
few things will be on sale the majority of November, but of course there's even
more things on sale just for Black Friday, Cyber Monday weekend, that 4 day period. A lot of
brands just want to participate in those. I was going to say a lot of that is not up to us to like have this kind
of wait window or a tiered sale discount. That is an insider tip if I've ever
heard one. Mhm. And on that note, thank you all so much for tuning in. We truly do appreciate it and we'll see you in the
next one. Cheerio. Cheerio. Love you.
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